The Same Fight Again: How to Improve Your Romantic Relationship When it's Impacted by ADHD with Melissa Orlov #202
“My partner says I’m using my ADHD as an excuse. They’re not really understanding ADHD at all or how it affects me!”
You shared your relationship struggles and you’re not the only one!
Today’s guest, Melissa Orlov, answers YOUR questions from my free Facebook group. We discuss ADHD as an excuse, partners who don’t understand ADHD, and communication obstacles between ADHD partners and non-ADHD partners.
We also dive into guilt, shame, trust, coping with RSD (rejection sensitivity dysphoria) when it feels like your partner is constantly criticizing you, how all of this affects intimacy, and life after divorce.
Melissa is the founder of ADHDmarriage.com and works with couples impacted by ADHD. There’s hope for your relationship, too, mama.
Let’s dive into your questions!
Links mentioned in this episode:
Melissa’s recent read: Barbara Kingsolver's Poisonwood Bible
Melissa’s Blog post: https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/maybe-just-maybe-adhd-excuse-act-heartless-jerk
How to connect with Melissa:
Her website: http://www.ADHDmarriage.com
Her Instagram: @adhd_marriage
Stop Medusa Mom in her tracks with these 10 tips to calm down before you lose your cool! Watch (or read) the free video here: https://www.patriciasung.com/calm
Melissa Orlov 00:00
So what happens is they start walking on eggshells rather than finding a constructive way to express themselves, they start to express themselves.
Patricia Sung 00:09
Are you overwhelmed by motherhood and barely keeping your head above water? Are you confused and frustrated by how all the other moms make it look so easy. You can figure out how to manage the chaos in your mind, your home, or your family. I get your mama, parenting with ADHD is hard. Here is your permission slip to let go of the Pinterest worthy visions of organization and structure fit for everyone else. Let's do life like our brains do life creatively, lovingly, and with all our might. When we embrace who we are and how our brains work, we can figure out how to live our lives successfully, and in turn, lead our families well, at the end of the day, we just want to be good moms. but spoiler alert, you are already a great mom. ADHD does not mean you're doomed to be a hot mess mama, you can rewrite your story from shame spiral to success story. And I'll be right here beside you to cheer you on. Welcome to motherhood in ADHD. Hey, they're successful Mama is your friend Patricia Sung. Today we have Melissa Orlov with us now Melissa has been on the ADHD scene for probably close to 20 years. She's written multiple books, and her specialty is working with couples impacted by ADHD. Today, the questions that I'm asking Melissa all come from you, they are all from a post that I made in our free Facebook group, which you are welcome to join. It's facebook.com/groups/motherhoodinADHD or you can just you know, put that in search box. And there I said, What are the relationship issues that you're dealing with right now. And y'all showed up with lots of struggles that you're dealing with. And my hope today is that one, you'll see that what you're dealing with is not just you, it's not just your relationship, all of these themes that I pulled out from your comments are frequent in many couples who are impacted by ADHD. And then second, some advice for Melissa on how you can connect and grow together so that you can be in a sturdy, stable relationship that you deserve. It is possible with a lot of support, and both partners working diligently to be there for each other it is possible to have and I know a lot of us, me included have been through struggles in our relationship where it felt like our ADHD was just running the train off the tracks and know that there is hope you can find a way to connect with your partner to build the life that you really want together. And I hope that Melissa's wisdom today gets that spark going to know that there is hope in your relationship, even though ADHD is in the mix. Let's welcome Melissa to the show. How are you doing today?
Melissa Orlov 02:57
I am happy to be here. So I'm doing fine.
Patricia Sung 03:00
All right. So I noticed when you were sending me your info, you mentioned that this was not where you thought you'd be. You didn't think you'd end up as someone who's you know, working with couples who have ADHD. So what did young Melissa think she was going to be doing at this point?
Melissa Orlov 03:17
I'm not completely sure. But where I started out actually was in marketing, advertising. So I had a completely different career. And then I moved over into this after knowing that both my daughter and my husband, ex husband now have ADHD, and, and realizing how many people were struggling with it. And I in my marketing career, I was working with Ned Halliwell and John Ratey. And so that gave me a very nice introduction into the field.
Patricia Sung 03:45
Yeah, I don't I don't know that it can get much better than that introduction into the field.
Melissa Orlov 03:50
What was amazing actually, was that what I was doing for them was helping them market professional training seminars on the topic of adult ADHD. And they had one in particular, that was a 22 week course for professionals, which was in essence, everything there was to know about ADHD in 2005, which is when they were giving it and so as the moderator I took that, which was a really wonderful lunch to getting into what I do.
Patricia Sung 04:17
Wow, man, and how did you get connected with them?
Melissa Orlov 04:22
Net and I believe it or not, went to the same high school and had the same high school English teacher, we both became writers. And I had I was doing research that I had a question for that was a psychological question. And he offered to help me with the question. So his generosity is how we ended up getting together.
Patricia Sung 04:40
Oh, that's so cool. serendipitous. Yeah. It's like you never know. Right? That person sitting across the road from you may end up being the catalyst for where you end up today. Okay, well, I am so glad that you're here because I posted in my free Facebook group what moms are struggling with ADHD. And, wow, I got a lot of responses on what they're struggling with in their relationships. So I'm just gonna see how many questions we can get through. And I guess it's kind of like a ask Melissa column here, like, what's your advice on these different areas that I tried to pull out the themes that were the most common between, like, we know my work with clients, and then what people had posted? And there were quite a few that, you know, popped up is repetitive concerns, I guess you could say. So, the first question I'm asked about is, when your partner thinks of your ADHD like an excuse, and they really don't understand how much it affects you, what would be your advice on how to proceed forward.
Melissa Orlov 05:49
So the entry into improving your relationship, if you've got ADHD, including the question of whether or not it's an excuse, is for both partners to get really educated on the topic. This is what I've dedicated my life to, quite frankly. But it really helps if an expert says something like ADHD is part of the physiology of the brain and the neurology of the brain. And it isn't an excuse it is the way this brain works. And the way that the couple will make improvements if both people understand that and then start figuring out what their strategies are, given that that's how that brain works. So I not to plug my own programs, but I have where I, where I teach couples is very thing. So if you can get your your partner to come to that seminar, that will go a long way towards helping that partner understand that it's not personal, and it's not an excuse. I would also say if you're in that situation where you're running up against the same thing over and over and over again, it may make sense to take a closer look at how you might start to address that in a way that helps it pop up less often. Depending on what your target symptoms are and what the various strategies are that you're already using, you may be able to help on that end as well.
Patricia Sung 07:01
So a lot of times, I'm gonna hear this all the time, like my partner's not interested in learning, or they're like, how do I get them to learn?
Melissa Orlov 07:09
Yeah, and some of that is a frustration, right, the being on the other side, particularly if you have a non ADHD partner. And what you see is repetitive mistakes, which don't make sense to that non ADHD partner, because they wouldn't make those same mistakes and mistakes are about distractibility, or impulsivity or difficulty organizing. And those are things that that partner doesn't share, typically. And so it really is a mystery, like they just don't get it, wait, you're an adult, you're supposed to be able to do these things, what's going on. And the frustration builds, again, really, the approach to take is to get much better educated about ADHD, mean, even therapists who don't know about ADHD, misinterpret the symptoms. So it's not a huge surprise, that your partners are misinterpreting the symptoms. And then they just become they get more and more frustrated. And just like I don't want to deal with you anymore, you need to fix yourself. And that's a really bad place for a couple to be in need professional systems or seminars or books or something.
Patricia Sung 08:10
So Oh, I forgot to say that question was from Melanie. So sorry, Melanie shadows, Melanie. When the partner is feeling resistant to reading books, or listening to podcasts, or going to a seminar, have you found any strategies that do work for the ADHD partner to share about their symptoms? Because like, when I have all these, you know, the questions here, like, specifically, they mentioned, like Jesse mentioned, like the decision fatigue of how, like, every decision is a lot of work. So getting to the end, it's like, I'm really tired by the time I get to the end of that discussion, or Moni mentioned, like verbal processing, how she just wants to be able to talk it out. And a lot of times the partners like chop chop, like let me just help you find the answer when really the whole goal for the ADHD or is I just want to talk to get they're not actually get a response. And so these kind of like things that we do that annoy our partners, have you found any ways to explain them? That doesn't feel and again, I'm some of this I'm putting my own color on. It doesn't feel like you're trying to force your partner into learning, but yet still sharing your experience.
Melissa Orlov 09:13
Yeah, I mean, I don't think that it's a bad idea, in this case to get that. I mean, you don't force anybody to do anything ever. So you're not in that situation. But a request. Look, this is really important for me. I mean, I think it depends on what you're trying to do. So if you have a sympathetic partner, or at least a partner who's not just frustrated and shutting you down at every turn, then you can say, hey, look, I'd like to share with you how my brain works and what it feels like. I mean, people describe the ADHD brain as you know, 50 TV's all on simultaneously or the Library of Congress with no card catalog in it or the race car brain with the bicycle brakes or you know, I mean, it's so different from the non ADHD brain, that I think that's very helpful that still without the broader context may or may not get what the person is trying to get done done. The verbal processing versus the efficient sort of solutions based thing is actually also gender based. A lot of women like to verbally process out loud. And a lot of men like to abuse problem solvers. And one of the approaches for that is to say, Wait, hold on, there's a gender thing going on here, I would like to verbally process and even warning your partner, hey, I need to talk through this out loud with you. But please do not solve the problem for me. I don't want to I don't want a solution. I want to feel as if you're listening. And then once you've listened, we can decide if there's a solution to discuss. But you can just overtly ask for what you want. That's as gender based, actually, as it is ADHD, non ADHD based. So that works sometimes again, it depends upon the tenor, you really have to look at your specific situation and say, is my partner open? Or is my partner frustrated and closed and trying to push me in a direction and if you're in the pushing direction, then you need some intervention? That's more significant.
Patricia Sung 11:06
Okay. On the flip side of that, I have in my group, a lot of moms with ADHD who have non ADHD partners, but also a lot that do have a neurodiverse partner. And Eric asked, like, how do I work with my spouse who, so both have ADHD, and it feels like they're not doing their part, to try to, like, do better. And from her perspective, is like, and again, I'm reading, you know, this three line comment into, you know, I'm putting little color in here. But a lot of times we feel like, especially as a mom, you know, you're juggling all the things and you're doing all the permission slips and the school registration and extracurriculars and the doctor's appointments, and you feel like you're already doing all these things at a handicap. And then you have your partner who doesn't feel like they're also trying to do their best and hear you are drowning. While they're, they don't, you know, it feels like they're using it as an excuse. So what advice would you have for a couple who feels like the other person's like, I'm doing all the things and I don't feel like you're trying as much as I am. Yeah,
Melissa Orlov 12:03
that's not that uncommon. And I gotta tell you, so much so that I wrote a blog post on it two hours ago.
Patricia Sung 12:10
It's funny that LinkedIn,
Melissa Orlov 12:12
but um, so there's a couple of different things going on there. One, it may be a gender based thing, if this is a heterosexual couple, where women typically in the US take on the cognitive load. And that's sort of our tradition, as unfair as it is, and it's horrible, it's a horrible thing. And then ADHD adds to that. Also, you typically will have one person who's either more motivated or, or further ahead in their ADHD treatment, or is more organized, and they tend to take on this sort of over functioning non ADHD partner like role, it's also gender based, it's tends to be more likely to be the women. And you really have to stand up to that or else, both of you end up in a situation of resentment and sort of an ongoing battle. And so it this is actually a pretty important element. There's a what I call parent child dynamics, that's not about kids, it's actually about a an over functioning and an under functioning partner, which is what's going on here. And it will destroy the relationship quite literally, as well as your sex life. So it's all the way around, it's a bad thing. It's about a series of conversations. And depending upon the partner, again, it could be a conversation around what's fair, what's not fair, it could be a conversation around who's got which strengths and how to allocate the tasks you do have, it could be a conversation about what to delegate so that neither one of you has to do this stuff, and it takes off some of the load. I'm a big believer that unless you just cannot possibly afford it. People who have a dual ADHD relationship, need to get a housekeeper. You're here at least every other week. Otherwise, it's just too hard. That's just too boring to ongoing. It's just too much fighting over it. But there are different ways to approach an imbalance but it needs to be approached head on politely, respectfully, and not from a perspective of what you aren't doing. But what you yourself are feeling so that the partner understands that you're in distress. And then as far as the ADHD stuff, there may be denial on that ADHD, other partners. You know, my ADHD doesn't matter. It's okay. I've always been like this. And unfortunately, denial is the thing that causes divorces, not ADHD. So you know, denial is the thing where you say, Okay, I'm not going to change whatever I'm doing but whatever you're doing is causing distress. And so if you're just ignoring the other partner's distress, that's a bad indicator of where things are going. So they're, it's a matter of trying to bring forward Hey, I'm really drowning here or forget about whether you label it as ADHD here are the three things you know you're emotionally dysregulated or you impulsively spend and we're in the hole or whatever the things are in focus. And on those things, and hopefully it will circle back to actually being ADHD issues that can be managed. I mean, the great thing about ADHD is how it's the by far the most manageable issue in the mental health field by far. There's so much that can be done.
Patricia Sung 15:18
Yeah, I often say like, when you have the right support, you can be extremely successful. But a lot of us didn't get those supports, or don't have the resources to get the supports or we're so busy drowning, we can't find the supports like, Yeah, but when you have that you really can't be super successful, but cool, putting them on places like
Melissa Orlov 15:40
pudding and using them at the right time. You know, Ross Barkley likes to say it's not that you don't know what you're supposed to be doing. It's, it's actually using them at the at the time, you're supposed to be doing them. That's the hard thing when you have ADHD. And I totally get that I was actually in a couple's group earlier this week, where one of the women was talking about the emotional issues that she's now working with a therapist on to get the emotional issues out of the way so that she's more motivated. I mean, there are lots it's not just about executive function stuff, there are lots of other things, but But generally speaking, it can be a forward momentum, provided you want to continue to try some stuff will stick some stuff won't stick, but that's okay, you're still better off if some stuff sticks than you were, you know, as long as you're not, you know, saying I can't believe I always have to just fix everything and, and there's what's wrong with me? And then you get really down on yourself. That's not a good.
Patricia Sung 16:32
Okay, question or theme. Number three, I guess comes from both Irina and Alicia about communication, when you have one partner, who is more like the hyperactive side of like very much an oversharer, an over communicator, like big personality, if you will. And then you have your other partner, who is also neurodivergent, but more of the inattentive side and is more introverted and in their head? How can you start to bridge those communication gaps when we mean whether it's an ADHD thing or not, but you have two very vastly different communication styles. And it feels like you guys are not coming together? What is your advice on that? Bringing that communication together so that you're both on the same page?
Melissa Orlov 17:15
That's a really hard question to answer without actually meeting the people. How I would approach that if I was working with this couple, it's maybe the best way to answer the question is that I would talk with them and ask them, you know, what are your preferred ways of communicating? You know, you were just talking earlier about somebody who likes to verbally talk about things to work through them, you know, maybe that's one of them, in which case, you teach the skill of for listening to it, or somebody else who likes to take a long time to think about something before they speak about it, in which case, you create a way of meeting, maybe at specific times, where the slow pace is useful, or is is incorporated into that. So you figure out what the preferred ways are. And then you accommodate those sometimes in a structure. I think the more neurodiversity there is, in a relationship, the more useful specific structures are. So one of the things I talked to couples about is, for example, having a once a week emotional meeting where they're talking about, you know, what do I need to talk about in the emotional realm this week, and some couples do two one hour meetings, one for each partner. But if you do one a week, and you set a time limit to it, so you know, it's not going to go on for five hours, you know, maybe it's an hour or 45 minutes or something, and you set a timer, and then you alternate who leads. So in one time, it would be the hyperactive person. And the next meeting would be the introverted person leading, I had another partner who said at one of the things that really helped was for she and her partner to go walk around that they happen to have a fairly large piece of property, walk around the property, or you could do this in a park or on a street or whatever. And she said, because she was the more verbal of the two of them. She promised herself that she would not speak for the first five minutes when they are out. And she would let her partner be the person who led the conversation. And she said that one change made a huge difference in terms of how well they understood each other, and how much he was willing to jump in and express himself. So there are small changes like that, that you can make. You just really have to be willing and interested in accommodating. This couple might also need a verbal cue that said, Hey, hold on, I want to jump in or can we can I take some time to think about it or some of the things that are repetitive issues with their conversations? The thing
Patricia Sung 19:43
that stood out to me there is that it's not only like you saying like, here's what I prefer, but also being aware of what the other person prefers. I think a lot of times we think we know what the other person wants, but we don't actually know what the other wants and we mask
Melissa Orlov 19:58
and we assume that people think the same way we do or want the same thing we want. And typically, that's not the case, because they're completely different person, there's no way actually, that you can really know, no matter how well you know your partner, there's no way you can really know what's going on inside their head. So always ask your partner about what their preferences are, what their way of doing things are, or whatever, so that it's inclusive, and somebody doesn't get shut out. If you've got a really hyperactive high energy person, they're likely to dominate until things get so bad that the introverted person can't stand it anymore. And then they jump in and go wait. And at which point, you're pretty far down the road. And you really don't want to get there.
Patricia Sung 20:45
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Melissa Orlov 22:57
Yeah, so it sounds to me as if the ADHD partner in this case is also noticing the mess ups and feeling that shame and guilt and shame is a horrible emotion to engage with. So it's about the last one on the planet anybody wants to deal with. And so that's really tough. I think that the repetitive issues is the nature of an ADHD impacted relationship, which is one of the reasons why it's good to get educated about what ADHD really looks like. There is an underlying issue here, which your person doesn't talk about specifically, which is trust. So yeah, this person is talking about frustration. But actually, there's also the underlying issue of look, if somebody is repetitively losing things, or not doing things or whatever. What that means is that a non ADHD partner is constantly on alert. They're constantly rescuing that partner, they're constantly waiting to see what else is going to happen. They have to make backup plans, they have to respond at the last minute and go pick up the beer, whatever the thing is totally throw out whatever they were actually doing. And so there's a reason why they get frustrated. I think that so it's not just about the frustration or feeling bad, but it's about building a system that allows you to do better. And that might be a tracker that's attached to your wallet, it might be a special spaces where you put things it might be, you know, the partner is picking up the beer and you're not or I mean there are a whole bunch of different ways to go about it. I think that the thing that the non ADHD partner needs to see is that you are making every possible effort to be as consistent as you can. And so there is overt stuff like you have a regular doctor's appointment, you have tried medications to see whether or not they work for you or whether you want to take them which not everybody has to but you have an exercise routine in in place you have sleep if you have sleep issues, which many do. You're overtly and very aggressively trying to figure out what they are and how to address them that you try to put Put a schedule into place that makes sense for you and the family, that you have an active reminder system, all the things that one does to manage ADHD. And at that point, that's really obvious what that communicates to the other partner is, I may be just disorganized, or I may not always do this, but I'm working really hard because I care about what your experience is, and I care about you. And I care about this family. And they'll see that and they'll know it. Yeah, the place where it's really hard is when you have somebody who feels sort of helpless versus their ADHD, or they're not taking all those who are saying, I don't need to try medication, or they don't regularly take their medication. They don't regularly see their doctor, they don't work on their sleep issues. They just say yeah, it's okay if I only sleep three hours a night, which definitely is not. I mean, that makes ADHD a lot worse. And they don't have any kind of reminder system in place. I mean, every person with ADHD needs a reminder system and needs a calendar of some sort a planning system, and something that they're actively involving their partner with or that their partner can see sometimes it's a shared calendar or something like that. So I think that's where it's really not about, well, let me just convince my partner to ignore this stuff. It's actually about demonstrating to your partner that you care enough about it to manage the ADHD because it has a huge impact on the other partner, and that I hear it over and over and over again, from non ADHD partners. It's fine. If my partner's ADHD is out there and part of it as long as I know, my partner is doing their best to manage it. But if they're not, it pisses me off.
Patricia Sung 26:36
Yeah. I think from like a mom's perspective, it feels like that's a lot of things to keep up with. And it is and knowing like, where in those seasons? Are you doing the things that you can do? Like, if you have a newborn? Yes, you're not going to get eight hours of sleep. But knowing that what are the things that you can do so in every season, especially as a mom, because you know, I mean, your kids are grown now. But, you know, the seasons are constantly changing, as they grow from, you know, babies to toddlers, just school age and teens. So for us, the climates always, always changing. If it like, that's us being flexible in those places of like, if sleep is not going to be the best because you have a baby, one of the things you are doing to take care of yourself, not just to show your partner but also for you.
Melissa Orlov 27:23
Right? Well, and the other thing is, you see nobody's getting sleep with a newborn. Or not that it's just like, that's just the way of it. But I think also, you know, one of the things that the sort of guilt and shame does sometimes is not have the conversation be over, I want to do the best I can do right now. I'm not getting much sleep, which means my symptoms are worse. So let's talk about what I have time to focus on what's most important in your eyes to make our relationship and our family as strong as possible. Since I only have you know, I can barely get a shower in right at the moment. And what are we going to do? What's the backup plan? Do we need family to come in more? Do we need, you know, if we have the funds? Do we need a night nurse? You know, for a while to wait? What are we going to do to make it work as best we can. So as much as you can partner with your partner around it again, that communicates I'm thinking about you. I'm interested in you. It's you know, and yes, every mom new mom needs to take care of themselves at the point that they have a young baby in the household because it's just tremendously stressful. So I don't think we spend enough time warning. What that's all gonna be. I think we put these like, you know, Oh, it'll all be great. You know, it was like, Oh, yes, not so
Patricia Sung 28:40
much. No, no, I said that so many times. I was like, Why did nobody tell me this was gonna be this hard.
Melissa Orlov 28:46
My daughter is trying to decide whether she wants to have kids right now in part because she's worried about whether it'll be really put so much strain on her and her partner that that will be hurtful as well as amazing. You know, she when she recognizes that the pros and cons.
Patricia Sung 29:03
Okay, along with this theme of the shame, multiple moms mentioned RSD, or rejection sensitivity, dysphoria and that way, especially with your partner, there that one look or the question of like, why are you doing that? Or, like, why is this so hard for you? Or why did you forget that again, all those little things, when you're in a good space, those things kind of roll off your back. But when you have ADHD, or you're particularly stressed that day, or it could just be normal day, that little comment or that little look, since a lot of folks with ADHD just down like the you know, full Cliff dive into the shame spiral of like, what's wrong with me? I'm, you know, how, why can't I get it together and all this. So how can the ADHD partner work with that RSD in knowing that, yes, those things are going to trigger you. So what can you do about it? And also in helping to educate your partner in knowing that like, those little things or little things for us. And like advice, they're on working through that knowing that like, maybe they really weren't being that critical. But we took it that way, how can both parties come together on that issue, and help each other.
Melissa Orlov 30:13
So this is probably not something that the ADHD partner actually can educate a non ADHD partner around because of the excuse factor, and because it's such a destabilizing force in their relationship. So again, there are lots of articles actually out there about RSD. Now, as well, as I taught, I have an entire session on emotional dysregulation in this seminar. So there are actually known ways to help manage RSD. So it's not so much in my mind about accepting that, yeah, you're gonna go into the shame spirals can be horrible, but maybe about mitigating the extreme nature of those kinds of responses so that you don't actually have to feel them in the first place. If you're not nursing, one of the possibly effective ways to do it would be medicinally. And there are specific medications for that. Also, mindfulness training, where you can just learn to create a pause, rather than go instantaneously into the primitive part of your brain is another thing that can help and exercise which is a generalized mood stabiliser. There's also depending upon your background, there's trauma therapy, that can help mitigate some of those feelings of shame, whatever it means to you, it's really a two sided question, because it's an interaction, right? It's how does the person who has the ADHD, make it less likely that they're going to have those absolutely horrible feelings? And then also, how do you get the non ADHD partner to recognize that shame is much easier to trigger or anger or anything else, so that the emotions are much easier to trigger. And again, that's an educational thing, what I find is, most non ADHD partners are perfectly willing to start thinking about how can I not trigger my partner, it's not pleasant for them, either. Yeah, they end up getting, you know, really beat up lots of times, or their partner goes into a shame spiral and disappears or whatever. But it is very difficult to navigate for those non ADHD partners, if you cannot. So what happens is they start walking on eggshells, they start rather than finding a constructive way to express themselves, they start to express themselves, and then that you get a growth of resentment, anger, etc. You know, that's also really bad for the relationship, which is why I'm saying it needs to come from both sides, a recognition that this is something to be addressed, and on the ADHD partner side recognition that this is something that needs to be addressed. Not just accommodated
Patricia Sung 32:46
on this.
Melissa Orlov 32:48
Working with couples, by the way, you know, you get two for the price of one.
Patricia Sung 32:54
Oh, dear, oh, say my husband and I have been in a marriage counseling as well. And there's so many times I'm like, oh, god bless in our marriage counselor is like just a rock of stability in those sessions. And like, oh, I don't know how I don't know how he does that all day. I'm like, I can imagine just I mean, I work with people one on one. And that's a lot of can't imagine trying to navigate the two of like, cool.
Melissa Orlov 33:16
Well, it helps. I'm very sympathetic to both sides. And I try really hard to say, you know, here's what this person could do and what this person could do, because it's never really one person who is fixing a problem between two people. It doesn't work that way. You know, I think you have to really look at what is each person's experience? And what are each person's options for changing their own experience in their contribution. Yeah,
Patricia Sung 33:43
and I think a lot of times the person with ADHD takes on that thought of it's all my fault, and I need to fix it. And it's never a one person job for a two person relationship.
Melissa Orlov 33:55
No. And in fact, one of the powerful things about teaching people about parent child dynamics, and also about what I call symptom response response, where you have a symptom, and then a response to the symptom, and then a response to the response. That pattern is everywhere, once you start to look for it and you know, different symptoms, but that pattern is that people start to recognize, oh, wait, this is a systems issue. This is not an individual issue. This is not about blaming one person, the other. And usually, the blame goes both ways, right? I mean, it depends. Sometimes you got somebody who just thinks that they're all of the problem. And they also have ADHD and whatever. But usually, the ADHD partner is perfectly happy to say, you know, if you'd just be nicer to me and less angry at me and less frustrated with me, everything would be fine. You know, and the non ADHD partners, but Well, if you would just fix the ADHD everything would be fine. And neither one of those statements is true. Yeah.
Patricia Sung 34:49
I say I have two more topics on here. The next one is there were several moms who mentioned that having sex is a very overwhelming experience. So like all the sensory input that comes with it. And then getting distracted. It's just not a as pleasurable as one would hope. And obviously, that creates a lot of struggle within a relationship. So what is your advice for couples there who are struggling with that intimacy, often derived from a sensory thing, and the ADHD symptoms with the distractibility and everything?
Melissa Orlov 35:18
Yeah, so I'm not an expert in sensory issues, actually. So I'm not probably the right person to ask about that. I mean, I see a ton of issues around sexual relationship. By the time people find me, they typically don't even have a sexual relationship for whatever reason. So it probably my advice on that one would be either to find somebody who's an expert in sexual issues, or somebody who's a psychiatrist, or psychologist who knows about ADHD and sensory issues and can help that I'm not the right person for that, unfortunately, because I like answering those questions. I just this is one I can't.
Patricia Sung 35:55
Well, so if we take that part aside, though, where couples are struggling with intimacy, do you have like, I guess more like blanket advice? If we take out the specifics, is there anything that you see helps couples come together more,
Melissa Orlov 36:08
the intimacy issue often is based in that parent child dynamic that I was talking about, where you have an over functioning, demanding partner and an under functioning person who's inconsistent enough that it leads to a lot of stress in the relationship. And you know, a parent and a child and a sexual thing is not at all sexy. So you know, that's sort of it's not equal. So stabilizing, and rebalancing the relationships so that you have equal partnership is actually your best way to get back to a more intimate partnership as well. So it the sex life is really the canary in the mine. It's the thing that goes first, when you have underlying structural issues in the relationship, or at least, if it doesn't go and you're still having sex, it's not as much fun as it used to be, it feels more of a burden. I mean, one of the things I hear from non ADHD partners, women in particular, my ADHD partner never pays attention to me, because they're chronically distracted, until they want sex, at which point, they're, you know, and that's just like another burden. I mean, you hear it from both sides, in terms of what the issues are. And you're usually structural. So generally fixing up the relationship, the understanding the correct interpretation, the warmth, the compassion, getting the parent child dynamic under control, so that the non ADHD partner isn't pushing and guiding and all that and the ADHD partners managing their ADHD as best they can, helps. I wish I could go buy a certain kind of lingerie or something.
Patricia Sung 37:41
Easy button on this one is so much easier. But I think just knowing that, like you said, it's the canary in the coal mine, where when you can fix the connection in the relationship that will greatly impact your connection, intimacy, so they go hand in hand,
Melissa Orlov 37:57
one of the problems is that if you haven't had sex for quite a while, and again, a lot of people who find me haven't had it for three, five years, I mean, a long time, then it becomes outsized in its importance and symbolism, right. And so there's a sort of easing into it things, you know, going out for walks, and having candlelight dinners, look at the kinds of things you would do if you're dating, that might help. But eventually, at some point, you just have to jump and say, okay, you know what, I'm gonna try this. And it doesn't mean we're having sex forever and the rest of our life, but it's an experiment to see, like, Can we do this? And, you know, can we take it slowly and make sure there's enough ramp up without any kind of resentment, you know, if you've got one partner who's really, really eager to have sex, and the other one is not so eager, that eager one to have sex may jump into the first sexual thing, and like, you know, all engines roaring, and that may scare the other person off. So you have to be very conscious of the fact that this is sort of an experiment, essentially, take it slowly.
Patricia Sung 38:56
And I just think that's really good for moms to hear, especially as you know, we know when you have a baby, there's always a low. And for a lot of folks, that lol extends longer than they had anticipated. But to know that you see this a lot. It's not uncommon. It's not like you're a weirdo, because it's, you know, you're not having sex with your partner, that this is a common issue that couples deal with, and that you're not alone. And that there are supports available,
Melissa Orlov 39:24
right? Well, and there are people who specifically help people with their sex lives that are in the counseling profession, you know, if it's around the issues of just having had a baby, and not being able to have intercourse or not feeling comfortable with that or being too tired or whatever, you can still cuddle or hold hands or touch each other, and not do the rest of all of that. And that's useful. And also it's really important to invite that other partner into the parenting process. It's one of the things that that is common, not just in me, not just a religion. Since I work with but in general, that the mother child bond is so strong and that the father feels left out. So the father is used to being in again in a heterosexual relationship, but the father is used to being the center of the wife's attention, and then suddenly is not at all the center. And so there's a great sense of displacement on the birth of a child. It helps if the mom is aware of that, and can reach out and include in the parenting thing in a positive way, but also in touching and holding and cuddling and falling asleep with the baby on the dad's chest and you're holding the dad or whatever it is, you know. Yeah.
Patricia Sung 40:36
All right. Last question comes from Louise. She said that her struggle is with like sensitivity and overthinking. And she just went through her second divorce. And so now she's scared to enter another relationship that like, is the cycle just going to repeat again? So what would be your advice there for someone who's like, Oh, my goodness, I don't know if I can do this. Yeah, what what do you do?
Melissa Orlov 40:59
I think, actually, that's the universal feeling of people who go through divorce. I went through divorce not too long ago. And I felt the same way. And I think that the divorce is an indication that that person wasn't a good fit for you. It's not an indication that you're unlovable at all. But it makes sense to figure out how to find a better fit in the future, and what, how to believe in yourself enough so that you're more likely to do that. I think people who are not sure how they feel about themselves, or who feel they're too much of this or too much of that are less likely to pair up with people who are a good fit for them. So I think, by far, the best strategy is actually to work with a good individual counselor, to start to address the issues that you face within yourself to make sure that you fully love yourself before you start going out to look for another partner. And that should help a lot. There's a lot of self compassion that can help when you are going through that process of recovering from a divorce and it does not happen right away for sure.
Patricia Sung 42:05
Yeah. Okay. Now, before we do our lightning round questions, how can the moms find you and work with you? And how do you help couples? And where would they go?
Melissa Orlov 42:16
Every way that I can is the answer to that. So my website is ADHDmarriage.com. And I work with people who aren't married as well. So I'm building a consulting practice, actually, I have done in consulting myself. And now I don't have the time to do as many people as would like to work with me. So I'm building a team of experts that I really trust. So there is consulting for couples and for individuals, as well as some coaching, and I run a non ADHD partner support groups. So help those partners learn how to be calmer in their relationship and really understand what's going on. I give this couples seminar three times a year, it's nine weeks by Zoom is very good. So for anybody who's interested in working with their partner to get really get grounded, and how to live in these relationships, that's a great resource. And I have books and I have a blog, and I've got all sorts of stuff, I would warn people that there is also a forum, it tends to be a little bit of the Wild West a lot of so I leave it up because I think it's important to have the space available for people. But it is not as friendly a place as it could be. Just because so many people are in pain and expressing that pain. So I would say you know, start with the resources that I provide, which are more balanced, and then go from there. And also you can contact me through the contact form. I don't promise to answer you within the same week. But I do try to get to all of those that are sent to me so
Patricia Sung 43:44
well thank you, I so appreciate you sharing your story and how couples can move forward together so that it's not you know, just one person and the person doing all the work but there is support out there for couples to work together and grow back together. Lightning round questions. So all you have to do is just fill in the blank. You don't have to explain anything. Okay, yeah, let's jump in. Okay, number one. The best thing that I've read or listened to recently is
Melissa Orlov 44:14
Barbara Kingsolver. Vers Poisonwood Bible fabulous.
Patricia Sung 44:19
Number two, my most boring about me fact is
Melissa Orlov 44:22
that I'm getting older.
Patricia Sung 44:25
Say that. But then number three, when I'm having a rough day, my go to quote song, poem, book, podcast activity, whatever is
Melissa Orlov 44:35
going out and going for a hike or bike ride something active that's outdoors.
Patricia Sung 44:40
Number four, don't tell anyone I play the
Melissa Orlov 44:43
cello really badly.
Patricia Sung 44:46
Number five. If I had a magic fairy wand for just one spell, I would
Melissa Orlov 44:52
create a magic formula so that couples impacted by ADHD didn't have to struggle so much.
Patricia Sung 44:58
And last one number six my The best piece of advice for mamas with ADHD is,
Melissa Orlov 45:03
learn how to love yourselves and try as hard as you can to work with your partner to resolve the issues rather than escaping or walking away from them.
Patricia Sung 45:14
Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And thank you for being a beacon of hope for both sides of the partnership no matter if the partner has ADHD or not. That there is hope that we can come together and resolve our relationships. Thank you. For more resources, classes and community head over to my website, motherhoodinADHD.com.