Should You Go to Therapy for your ADHD? How to Hire and Fire Your Therapist, Hobby Hopping, Cycle Breaking, and ADHD Friendship with Psychologist & BIPOC Advocate Dr. Han Ren #136
Have you ever wondered if you need therapy for your ADHD?
That question can feel overwhelming for ADHD mamas. You’re thinking:
Do I really need therapy if I’m not in crisis?
What if my therapist doesn’t understand my ADHD brain?
What if they tell me I’m just a hot mess and there’s no hope for improvement?
What if I don’t like my therapist and I’m stuck in weekly sessions I don’t know how to get out of?
I hear you mama, and I’ve been there.
But what if I told you I knew someone who could answer all these questions–a licensed psychologist, consultant, speaker, educator, and most importantly–a mom with ADHD?
Meet Dr. Han Ren–she’s our guest for this episode of Motherhood in ADHD, and she addresses all these questions and SO much more. We talk about:
-Dr. Ren’s own journey to ADHD diagnosis, and how she felt like she was “tricking” her psychiatrist into prescribing stimulants (Until she realized she ACTUALLY needed them!)
-The cultural impact of ADHD, breaking generational cycles, and how Dr. Ren worked to decondition her belief that it was a character flaw
-Navigating friendship with ADHD–and how to handle it when you feel like you’ve been “too much” in your relationship
-Normalizing indecision and changing your mind–why it’s totally okay to hobby hop
-When to go to therapy–and how it can help ADHD moms thrive, even when we’re not in crisis
-How to choose the right therapist for you, AND how to fire your therapist if they're not a good fit–no guilt, shame or ghosting necessary!
-Parenting well with ADHD–Dr. Ren shares how it’s made her a more compassionate mom
-How Dr. Han sucks at cleaning her house (YES, she really is just like us!)
Mama, you deserve to feel your best, and if that means finding a therapist to walk through life with you, then I support you 100%, and this episode is for you!
I want to thank Dr. Han Ren for gifting us with her incredible knowledge, inspiring activism, and empathy as an ADHD mom.
https://www.amazon.com/What-My-Bones-Know-Healing/dp/0593238109/ref=nodl_
To watch Dr. Ren normalize therapy and lift up communities of color through relatable and educational content, follow her on Tik Tok: @drhanren and Instagram: @dr.han.ren
To learn more about Dr. Ren’s therapy practice, visit her website.
Get your life together next month when Time Management Mastery for ADHD Moms opens for enrollment.
In 11 weeks, you’ll design your daily rhythms and routines for a smooth and successful day.
Join the waitlist here: bit.ly/tmmwaitlist
Dr. Han Ren 0:00
I am so shamed and they hate me. A lot of times that's our own stuff.
Patricia Sung 0:07
Are you overwhelmed by motherhood and barely keeping your head above water? Are you confused and frustrated by how all the other moms make it look so easy. You can figure out how to manage the chaos in your mind, your home, or your family. I get your mama, parenting with ADHD is hard. Here is your permission slip to let go of the Pinterest or the visions of organization and structure fit for everyone else. Let's do life like our brains do life creatively, lovingly and with all our might. When we embrace who we are and how our brains work, we can figure out how to live our lives successfully, and in turn, lead our families well, at the end of the day, we just want to be good moms. but spoiler alert, you are already a great mom. ADHD does not mean you're doomed to be a hot mess mama, you can rewrite your story from shame spiral to success story. And I'll be right here beside you to cheer you on. Welcome to motherhood in ADHD.
Patricia Sung 1:14
Hey there successful mama. It's your friend Patricia Sung. Today's guest is Dr. Han Ren who is a licensed clinical and school psychologist, consultant, speaker, educator and mom with ADHD just like us. Dr. Han's work is deeply rooted in liberation and anti oppressive work purchasing from a justice oriented interpersonal and systems informed framework. She is using social media to make therapy more accessible and applicable to our everyday lives. Dr. Han is addressing the pursuit of collective healing through her work and activism centered in historically overlooked communities. Now, I've been watching Dr. Han for quite some time on Instagram. And I love what she's doing. I love how she is yelling with a you know, a megaphone, which probably feels like yelling into a void about what it is like to be a woman of color from her perspective. And I know she gets a ton of grumpy and unkind messages back.
Patricia Sung 2:13
And as a community who is fighting for better treatment of those of us with ADHD and mental health issues and disabilities. I also want us to be a community that's fighting for women that's fighting for mothers, that's fighting for people of color. Like I want us to be championing everyone, because our community is so widespread. And so all encompassing, like we know that ADHD affects people at the same rate, regardless of geography, location, social background culture, it doesn't matter. ADHD affects everyone. And so if our community looks like this melting pot, then it is my opinion that we also should be championing for everyone in the group, no matter what they look like, feel like sound like.
Patricia Sung 3:03
So when I see someone like Han, who is so beautifully fighting for people who look different, and are treated different in our world, I can't help but want to be there to cheer them on. So we do talk about how culture and race affect our ADHD and we wander through a lot of different areas including how do we know we should be in therapy? How do we choose the therapist? How does she view her motherhood? Considering that she has ADHD and also navigating friendship? That's hard for us as well. So can we to introduce you to our new friend, Dr. Han Ren. Okay, mamas. Let's welcome Dr. Han Ren to the show. How are you doing this morning?
Dr. Han Ren 3:45
I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.
Patricia Sung 3:47
It's funny to have somebody who's actually not that far away. But normally, I'm interviewing people on the other side of the country. And we're actually only a couple hours apart. So actually, my cousin Austin today Oh, awesome. Very involved in UT. So he's there a lot. So where I want to start with with your diagnosis journey, because you said something that really hit home when we were going back and forth. And so I was like, must dive in. So can you just walk us through? Like how did you figure out how to EEG and what did that look like? And I know it's a very long and winding story for all of us, but the short version of it, but how did you find out?
Dr. Han Ren 4:22
As a child I was always very de dreamy and spacey teachers or Kalami while I was totally not paying attention, but I was always able to compensate for it. I always could pick up whatever it was and did well on tests and very much powered through my schooling even through college. I did a lot of kind of like brute force focusing and then after college I started grad school and you know in college you like get some friends who give you some study aids. Wow, this is probably helpful like, maybe I can, like get some study aids for real. So I went to a psychiatrist who was like, actually, yeah, you have ADHD.
Dr. Han Ren 5:09
And I'm like, Yes, I fooled them. I was convinced that I had for the psychiatrist tricked them into giving me a prescription for stimulants. And the way that it showed up at that point is if I wasn't interested in something, I would just fall asleep. Like, I just could not keep myself awake. And it was embarrassing. And I would like, pinch myself to try to stay away to the point like having bruises. And I just could not get my to get it together. So once I started taking them, and I wasn't even doing it regularly, because I was still very convinced that fooled my psychiatrist, I noticed how much of a difference it made, especially in some classes, so it was definitely like a PRN as needed thing for a while.
Dr. Han Ren 5:53
And as I learned more about ADHD in women, ADHD in adulthood, and as I kind of matured into my body and brain and identity, it became more and more apparent that these personality quirks that I had not just personality folks, I always said, Oh, I have hobby ADHD, because I like to start a lot of projects and, you know, not finished them. And then realize later on, it's part of the bigger constellation. And so it really was leaning into it as I matured, and became more comfortable with the idea of this diagnosis. Because there's just so much that wasn't known about it when I was growing up.
Patricia Sung 6:39
How did you feel in those times where you're like processing it and realizing like, Oh, this isn't just quirky me. It is part of the ADHD bubble, like what were the feelings going through? Is it all like the pieces started coming together?
Dr. Han Ren 6:55
It's a, you know, combination of like, validation and feeling seen, but also like, terror, like, what do I do with this information? How will this affect the way that I live? My life is my you know, it's still just like the self gaslighting. am I faking it, I must be faking it. So it really is, I think it's still coming in pieces, even now of learning to embrace neuro divergence as a gift. And one of the many quirks and just diversities of the human experience in the human mind and not placing any value judgments on, you know, one way or another. Purchase life differently.
Patricia Sung 7:37
So the the thing that stood out to me when you say like, I felt like I tricked my psychiatrist, I hear that from so many bombs, like, to the point where it's like, okay, why do we feel this way? Because I felt that way too. Like, why do we feel like we don't actually think we have because you work with a lot of people who have a pretty good goal to gather data from, why do we feel that way?
Dr. Han Ren 8:01
I think for me, and I think for people of color a lot of is this cultural elements, you know, the children of immigrants, like we are taught that you just have to power through, and you have to work harder. And if there's anything that's hard about your life, it's because you're not trying enough. And that was such a mentality that I grew up with. And so it was very much like, well, I don't look like the seven year old white boy who has ADHD, you know, like the jumping out of their seat, the squirming this, like that was never me. And even being a psychologist, you know, on earthing, the very many different ways that it shows up in girls and women, many different ways it shows up in adulthood, and then really navigating the overlap between complex trauma and ADHD, and they don't cause each other. But there is such an overlap, because of how trauma affects the brain and how it allows the emergence of some of this neuro divergence to show up at different times. And so it's so hard to parse these things out that it's easy to just believe the conditioning, that it's a character flaw.
Patricia Sung 9:15
When you're talking about like having that cultural background, like you need to try harder. How are some of the ways that ADHD gets affected by our culture and our race? Like how do they all influence each other? I know, that's a huge question, but good. Can we dive a little more into that?
Dr. Han Ren 9:30
Yeah, I mean, I think the bigger question is, how does different cultures approach neurodivergent mental illness and anything that is a deviation from, you know, how a person should be? And then vice versa? How does Western psychology and psychiatry perceive deviances that may be rooted in culture, and you know, but there's such a interesting On transactional dynamic going on, because Western psychiatry psychology does tend to pathologize a lot of things that are culturally rooted and you know, along the spectrum of typicality, or Cali, whatever that means, right? of just the human condition, human experience. And then vice versa, you have all of these norms from culture that prescribe what is, you know, a problem, what is worth treating, and the stigma that treatment entailsa
Patricia Sung 10:36
When use it the word pathologize, some of us won't know what that means. Can you explain that term to us?
Dr. Han Ren 10:42
Yeah. And it means, you know, making into a disease, a problem, an illness, making it into a diagnosis.
Patricia Sung 10:51
When we look at any group that's different, you're getting this message of, you need to fit it. When you have ADHD, we tend not to be how does that affect who we are and how we're becoming as people when we're getting this message of you need to fit in because it's not safe, if you don't fit in? And yet, I'm not fitting it.
Dr. Han Ren 11:16
I mean, for me, personally, I think I really embrace being the oddball or just odd, right? Like, even within the circles that I hung out with in high school, like I had a lot of like theater goth friends, but like, I think part of ADHD and the way that it manifests for some people is that with friend groups, we can be very much satellite's, instead of kind of like, okay, this is my core group of friends. And so that was, that was a gift in a lot of ways that I could like, contort and fit myself into lots of different groups. But I also didn't feel like I had like, My people in quite the same way. Like I have one or you know, several close friends, but not like a group. And that met the needs of different parts of my identity and different parts of my personality. But it was never like, Okay, you are totally along lines of like, the nerdy kids or the, you know, theater kids or whatever, because there were so many elements of how I presented that were not consistent with whatever group I was hanging with. And so I really adapted by just having lots of different groups.
Patricia Sung 12:24
I think as a mom, especially when you have ADHD kids, that's something you worry a lot about is Will my kids have strong friendships? Is it okay for our kids to just have one or two friends? Or do they need that core group of people?
Dr. Han Ren 12:40
Why don't your friends is great, one or two friends is so solid. Most people don't have just like that solid, solid few friends, you know, and I do think like, when we find our people, like, they are people, they love you for who you are. And you can latch on and really get each other. And so sometimes it is it's quality over quantity, it's def, but also a lot of times, you know, and I think it depends on the person, but for me, I felt that I was like too much for one group, right? So that I could like, spend some time here and this wasn't like there until I was like, Okay, well I don't have to like overwhelm any like group of people. So I didn't have like my solid solid crew, who I'm still solid with, you know, 20 years later. But then with the groups of people that I hung out with, it was like a relief to feel like I don't be too much. You know, you'll get sick of me because I can diversify or like make myself scarce when I get the sense that like, oh my gosh, you know, I'm becoming too much this is too intense.
Patricia Sung 13:47
I think that's a feeling that a lot of people with ADHD have is that feeling of I'm too much and we don't notice that it's too much until it's too late. And it's like, oh, that was that was that was too much. And the shame and the shame, then the shame spiral snares like the recoil of like, okay, when I'm just going to go hide and I'll just avoid that person for X amount of time to like balance out the too much this note with the absence and maybe like, evens out and then we like okay, now being a bad friend because there's a way too long and it's there's this like, self doubt and this pendulum swing of like too much too little. But what is your advice to moms who are feeling like I all I do is swing between too much and not exhausting.
Dr. Han Ren 14:32
It's so normal, right? Like the too much not enough too much not enough like and the habits of romantic relationships and partnerships to have this like, you know, I think of attachment is like this, like undulation haze of like, Okay, now we're okay, coming back together now and coming back apart again. And, you know, it's normal. And I think like, we have this idea that as humans, we just need to be so hyper consistent or like people are not going to be forgiving of us or you know, but everyone is doing and sometimes you like, you know, have this like synergy when you guys are like a line, and sometimes you don't. And that's just life. And there's no reason or need to judge or shame that, you know, if it doesn't work and you find yourself in this, like, too much not enough space. Okay, try again, you know, that's, that's the gift of relationships is not about the ruptures, but the repair and and being able to repair, I think isn't a gift because we have to do. So, you know, normalizing that.
Patricia Sung 15:37
How can we hone in that skill of repair? How can we be better repairs? Because we do do a lot of repairing? What are the ways that we can we can do that better? I
Dr. Han Ren 15:50
think part of it is noticing what's your own, like rejection sensitivity, you know, and what's like, the actual thing, and we're not going to always know, but some, most of the times we're like, oh my gosh, I am so shamed, and they hate me. A lot of times, that's our own stuff. And we have this desire to just go hide under a rock and avoid never talk to that person again. Or like, are you mad at me? Madami I'm so sorry. You know, like the peppering of anxiety questions. And I think building a self awareness of what we're in that space of like, okay, let's let's ground let's center let's regulate, and then let's check it.
Dr. Han Ren 16:36
Okay, um, you know, this might be just me. But that interaction we had, I came away from it feeling a little self conscious or like fearful that I might have said something or overstepped in some ways. Can we talk about it? And just frame it as a question, it's a conversation. And, you know, sometimes people are a little taken aback, because that's not how we tend to communicate, we're not as direct as I think we really need to be in interpersonal relationships. But then the more you normalize that, and the more you start those conversations, the more people can meet you there. And you know, that builds connection that builds closeness over time, where you can just like, Hey, was that too much?
Dr. Han Ren 17:21
Yes. Okay, cool. I'm really sorry. Now I know, or no, it wasn't okay, thank you for validating me, I was in my head. That's it. And then, if it wasn't like, Okay, what was it? What can I do next time, I'll try to remember, maybe it will really, you know, Miss can take a few repetitions. And that's okay. And that's part of loving yourself to as as you learn to like, embrace this quirkiness and how you show up in the world, the more you love yourself, the more other people will also be able to love you. And then you normalize that for them. They can love themselves, too, we need to show up in perfectly, because that's the only way we can be authentic.
Patricia Sung 18:03
So shifting gears, you do a lot of therapy with people who have ADHD. How do we know it is time to seek out the help of a therapist?
Dr. Han Ren 18:17
I think I'm biased because I think everybody could benefit from therapy, you don't have to be in a place of crisis or despair. I think it depends on your specific experience and presentation. But for a lot of ADHD years, we do best when we have a sounding board. Like we can't formulate the jumble of thoughts in our heads to make sense. So we need somebody to like listen, and just reflect you know, being able to talk it through helps us organize our own thoughts. I mean, that's one of the beauties of journaling. But you don't have somebody else to like, untangle that ball of yarn alongside you. I think, if you wonder like, Could this be helpful? Give it a shot, what do you have to lose? And I recognize that it's a privilege and accessible for lots of different reasons for many, and if it's within your accessibility, or you can rearrange something to just give it a shot, please do because I have seen so many people feel this immense relief in, you know, having their experiences normalized and having somebody else bear witness to their pain.
Patricia Sung 19:33
How do we know that we're picking the right person? For us to be our therapists?
Dr. Han Ren 19:40
Oh, that's such a great question. You get to interview them to like you know, there's there's usually like a free console to call most therapists offer that. And that's a time that you can get a feel for how this conversation flows. You ask them questions about the characteristics that are important to you in a therapist. Is it experience With this particular diagnosis problem, was it you know, lived experience with this person shares common identity characteristics, as you is this person just like funny and nurturing just like Jive on a personality level, like all of those factors are really important. And you know, sometimes you can't get all that information in just like a 15 minute call, if you start with a therapist, give it like five sessions, feel it out, see how it goes. And if after five sessions, you're like, Ah, I don't feel comfortable, I don't feel safe, or I feel like they're bored, or they're not interested or in tune, then try somebody else. It's a lot like dating, you gotta, you know, interview them, and you got to suss them out, because it is an intimate relationship. And it's a very, very important one.
Patricia Sung 20:48
As a therapist, do you also have a therapist?
Dr. Han Ren 20:52
Oh, of course. Yes. Absolutely. I have been in therapy, on and off since I was 14. And I've been through all sorts of different there be modalities, relationships, couples, therapy, my daughter's in therapy. And for the past, gosh, like since I started my own independent practice, and I was like, Ooh, I need someone to like, walk alongside me. Like, for past five years, I've just been in weekly therapy.
Patricia Sung 21:22
A lot of them are not really sure. Like, what do we do in therapy? Like, what actually happens when I'm there? Can you walk us through like, so it's like, it's more approachable. They're like, Okay, I already know what I'm getting into, here's what's gonna happen.
Dr. Han Ren 21:34
And that's, that's so different, depending on the therapist and the modality and the type of therapy you're getting. And so there are some therapists were like, Okay, we're gonna work on skills, like, let's make an agenda for the day. And here's a worksheet. And some people really respond to that, because they feel like they need that structure. What I have discovered is that, you know, oftentimes, that's really great for the beginning stages of like, okay, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to do this, and then you learn it.
Dr. Han Ren 22:05
But eventually, you get to a point where like, okay, now I know what I should be doing. But I'm not doing it. Why, right? Like, that's, that's where I feel like, Oh, this is fine. Like, it's like the real like relational work, there's real, like, templating the dismantling work comes in. And I think like, as long as you have a solid relationship with their therapist, when you feel seen, and understood, and nurtured and safe, that's their job, the therapists job is to conceptualize guide and like meet you where you are, you don't have to, you know, carry that burden in labor. And I have gone through different types of therapy throughout my life, you know, some are very, like cognitive, behavioral, head based, and some are very, like, somatic, body centered, some are very emotion centered.
Dr. Han Ren 22:54
And depending on where I was, in my own readiness, different modalities has have worked well for me, accordingly, I think where I am now, like, I know what I can or should be doing most of the time. But there are still things I get in my way. And that's all the like deeper work, the all the childhood understanding, unraveling, dismantling. And so you know, one of the things that I think is really helpful for my own therapy, but also how I approach work with my clients is this question of where did you learn that? How did it serve you then? And does it still serve you now? What is the function of this for you? And a lot of that stuff is not just the content of like, this was my week. It's the process of like, what's happening in the room and the here and now like, between us, does that show up somewhere else? Can we talk about it? And that's like the Oh, so vulnerable. But it's also like, you can't hide or run from it when it is in the room with you. And you know, someone's pointing that out?
Patricia Sung 24:02
Yeah, I think we're all carrying on so much baggage, that the thought of even entering the room and being like, I have just that first step feels so scary. So to know that when you're looking for help, there are many different options out there. There are many different people, you have so many choices. And like you said, it's like dating, you have to try out all the different things. It's like, you know what, I went on this date. And this person, we got sushi turns, I don't like sushi. But I would still like that person. If we tried Italian and you're like, it's like all the different pieces can come together. And the whole point is for you to feel safe and comfortable. Working through your baggage comforting to hear like there are lots of choices. So if one person doesn't work out, you can talk to another one. If one type doesn't work out, you can try a different thing.
Dr. Han Ren 24:50
And that's so normal. You know, I want to normalize the like process of finding a therapist and like trying out different types of therapy. Sometimes you do A good piece of work with a therapist for however long hear two years, and then you're like, okay, that part is done. And then you're ready to start a new relationship with somebody else. So as a therapist, like, I take people to a certain point, and then maybe somebody else will pick it up along the way. And some people, I take them longer in their journeys into my dog. And wherever I may take them is self discovery. It's a journey, even if they hate me. It's like, okay, now you know what you don't like, that's awesome. It's not personal to me. And I don't take it personally.
Patricia Sung 25:34
Do you wish there was a way to feel like you're not failing at life and motherhood every day, I notice like to run around all day, like a headless chicken stressed, because you're late to everything. And when you finally sit down after the kids are in bed, you think about how you didn't get anything done. And somehow your to do list is longer than when you started out this morning. You're tired of drowning and feel like you'll never catch up. But imagine this. When you sit down at the end of the night.
Patricia Sung 26:02
There's no mount laundry, you know what's for dinner, you spend some quality time with your kids. And Medusa mom didn't even rear her ugly head at bedtime. And he did something kind of just for yourself today. If you did even one of those things today, you'd be thrilled, right? It's not a fairy tale, Mama. There are other moms with ADHD getting their days together. And you can do that's why I created time measure mastery for ADHD moms, where I teach you how to create a rhythm for your day in an ADHD friendly way that puts the lengthy To Do List of motherhood on automate. So you don't have to think about when you're sleeping next, or how you'll find time to pay that bill you've been putting off, you'll be able to make a plan for your day that is fluid enough for your ADHD brain to stick with been structured enough to feel like you're in control. Remember our rhythms and routines service, not the other way around.
Patricia Sung 26:53
Over the next 11 weeks you will create a flexible framework for your day and walk away with a community of moms who understand you and are cheering you on and say I'm right there with you. Because being a mom is art, we will get off track. That's just part of ADHD. But now you will have the support to get back on track. When you are struggling. We meet weekly to help us remember oh yeah, we're working on a goal. Most importantly, you'll learn about how your ADHD brain works so that you make decisions from a place of confidence because a healthy mama leads a healthy family. Being proactive comes from a place of strength, which takes a ton of strain off your relationships because you are in a better place.
Patricia Sung 27:36
When you're ready to lighten your load. By making a daily plan and figuring out what makes sense for your ADHD brain and enjoying more of your motherhood, it's time to sign up for the time management mastery for ADHD moms program. The next round of the program is starting soon. So hop on over to the waitlist at https://bit.ly/tmmwaitlist. That's https://bit.ly/tmmwaitlist, all lowercase letters, so that you'll be the first one to know when it's ready. And I always have a little something special for the mamas who have a vote of confidence for me before the program is ready to open.
Patricia Sung 28:16
So head over and sign up for that waitlist because the program starting soon. And now's the time to make a change in your daily life. One more time, that's https://bit.ly/tmmwaitlist. I think a lot of women with ADHD are very afraid of breaking up with their therapists like what if I actually do go in? And then then I realized I don't want to do it anymore. Or like you said, like we've completed that thing. And it's time to do a different thing. Like, how do we break up with our therapist.
Dr. Han Ren 28:51
Please don't ghost us. Sometimes if your therapist is hot, causing you harm and you don't want to go back you can like send them an email and say this is why right. But for the most part, saying goodbye is just as important as saying hello. And it is something that as a society we're not good at. We're nonconfrontational, like women with ADHD. We're very bad. I say goodbye, because it brings up all of this uncomfortable feeling. Just sit with your own, like sadness or your own like, Oh, am I hurting you? Am I offending you? And if you can do that in the therapeutic relationship, wow.
Dr. Han Ren 29:26
What see finally can do in the world in your life. Like, you know, everything you do with your therapist is like a trial run, you generalize that skill to somewhere else in your life. And so, practicing being assertive and clear communication, and then your therapist facilitates that ideally, I mean, if you're breaking up with a therapist, they might not be the safest person to facilitate that. But then you also practice like, Hey, this is not meeting my needs, and it's not personal and it doesn't have to be something that you feel so much shame about. About, it'll probably be uncomfortable, probably be hard. And it's great practice for life. And we're used to it too. You know, we don't we don't take I mean, it doesn't always feel good, especially when we're kind of blindsided by it. And that's why it's like, okay, please don't go so we can have a conversation about it. Your job is not to educate me or like, give me feedback. But if that would feel good to you, please do. But I would like to facilitate as much closure and completion for you as possible, because that is part of how we grow as humans.
Patricia Sung 30:35
And I think remembering that no therapist expects you to stay with them for the entirety of your lifespan, like that's not a realistic expectation. So expected that at some point, you're going to do something different, whether that is you're taking a break, whether it is you want to try something new, whether it is you want to tackle a different problem, that maybe that person's not the right fit for, like, it's okay, you're allowed,
Dr. Han Ren 30:58
Yeah, or you move or your job changes. So your shirt, so the company knows, kind of like naturalistic break up points. And somehow those feel a little easier or more accessible, but they don't have to be the only reason why people add their therapeutic relationships. And for a lot of my clients, you know, after a while, it's like, okay, you know, things are going really well. Do we want to scale it back? Do you want to do bi weekly, once a month, or, you know, we have booster sessions every few months, and you were just come back when you need me, I'm here, life will happen, and go off and live your life. And if you need me, I'm here.
Patricia Sung 31:34
Okay, I'm gonna switch gears in. Yeah. When you think about your motherhood and having ADHD, how do you approach things differently in your life, now that you know you have ADHD,
Dr. Han Ren 31:45
I want to believe that I'm more patient and I give more grace, I think I give more grace to my children than I do to myself, I think that's still something that I am working on and learning and unlearning, I know the value and necessity of a good Google Calendar, solid, write things down, put them in the calendar, and everyone looks at the family calendar, the word calendar, you know, like I live and die by my calendar, I need it. And then I also like, keep notes on my phone. I will put you know, task lists on but I will also like jot down ideas that I have for different days because like, I just strike me at the most random times. And if I don't capture it, it'll just be gone. So I'm learning I'm in the process of learning how to just like, capture it as they come up. Because before I would think like, oh, yeah, I'll remember it later. And no, I won't.
Patricia Sung 32:47
No, that is one of the biggest ADHD vibes. I will remember that later. Or I will do that later.
Dr. Han Ren 32:52
Nope. And you know, another thing is like, as a mother, your time is so precious. And you know that if you don't do that thing now, because you like, really don't feel like it, you'll never get done. So if it's gonna take five minutes or less, just do the thing. just force yourself to do that day, and I hate it. But it was like, Okay, you folded the laundry, just put it away. Otherwise, you will not put it away and you'll just live on it. Have you ever do laundry basket for the rest of the week, which is fine. But if you can just put it away. And another it's like being okay with living out of the laundry basket. And you can see my bookshelf behind me that is not organized. Just be okay with that.
Patricia Sung 33:35
But the funny thing is, I didn't even look at your bookshelf, you don't like I noticed there is a bookshelf, and I saw their books like to me, I didn't notice that it wasn't organized. So you're like, look at my unorganized bookshelf. But I think that's something we do a lot is we say like, Oh, don't mind this mess is like well, oh, now I see your mess. Whereas before, like I didn't even notice the mess. And we're far more self conscious of what our mess is than a lot of people.
Dr. Han Ren 34:02
That's like a personality quirk, right? That you think is just like a personality quirk. You're like, oh, gosh, I'm just really neurotic. And also like, you know, the rejection sensitivity, the like, self consciousness, like, Hmm, extends beyond adolescence, like for a lot of people. It's like, in your teen years. It's super hyper sensitive. And then you're like, okay, whatever. But for us, kind of sticks around.
Patricia Sung 34:30
But what parts of ADHD are the hardest for you? Like, where are the areas where you really struggle most?
Dr. Han Ren 34:36
Hmm. I get bored. I get bored so easily. And I am really learning to roll with that and to just do the things that my energy wants me to do because if I'm feeling something like I will get into a flow and I will love that thing. But even As I'm like, in my career, I always start something like, I will love this forever. And then I realized, as I mentioned, like, okay, and I'm done with that, and I'm ready to do that something else. And so it's like, you know, I have so many like craft hobbies that I've go through the pure my macro may phase, I have all this macro, okay, my crochet phase, these days, I'm into, like, punch embroider.
Dr. Han Ren 35:25
But you know, even with like, with my career, I did a lot of clinical work for the first phase I'm playing, I'm building a practice, I'm like, Okay, we go and do some assessments. And then like, started tic tock. And so like, I realized that I have to go where the energy flows and where it takes me. And so, you know, in recent times, I've really scaled back on my clinical work, because I've noticed it wasn't nourishing and energizing me in quite the same way. And I'm, you know, doing more speaking and switching gears a little bit. And because this is where my interest is, I've been trying to write a book for a long time, and I've been really trying to, like force it. And then, you know, forcing, it doesn't work. I'm feeling like more of that flow. So maybe it'll happen this year. But I'm also really learning to just ride the way of wherever my interest take me, because when it works, really, really works. And when it doesn't, forget
Patricia Sung 36:19
it. Yeah, that's a really hard one for us. And like, being okay with being the switcher, because we do get those Oh, what happened to that macro may end. So I given you the side, I am like, oh, is this just like you're, I'm going to be a crochet businesswoman. And so all my crochet wares, and now we're on to whatever you know, thing is, and that it starts to cut in time forcing yourself to do something that you really don't enjoy. It's not it, where where are we going with this? We're not getting anything out of that anymore. It earned to reconcile those two things. It's okay to quit.
Dr. Han Ren 37:04
I think that's something we don't normalize or talk about enough in our society. Like, we don't have good celebratory language for people who know when to quit before it gets miserable. We have like we always say like grit and perseverance are people who, like keep on doing something that they don't want to do for what for the sake of completion? Yeah, right, right, the waves of your own energy levels. And when you do quit, your energy will show you something else, you will find something else that will be very interesting, and give you that flow, and feel great. And you do that for a while.
Patricia Sung 37:46
And then you do something else. It's okay. But it reminds me of a lot of people who start things like maybe you start grad school, or like something that's going to take you multiple years to complete, and you get towards the end, you're like I don't want to do this anymore. And you're like, well, we'll just finish this, then you have your degree, it's like, Well, okay, yes, but what are you going to do at that degree that you don't want to do?
Dr. Han Ren 38:09
Yeah. I mean, as someone who went to a lot of school, I definitely know how that feels. And yeah, there were definitely times I wanted to quit during my grad school years. But I also knew that the freedom of having this degree was worth it. And that's another thing. It's like, people think, like, Okay, you get this degree in this thing. And then that's all you can do with it. But actually, like school, or graduate degrees, or whatever, like the ability to learn, proves that you can learn and so I am doing way different things with my PhD than I ever thought I would be doing. And that's really cool. And I get to continue, see where that goes.
Patricia Sung 38:54
And it's hard in the moment to think about both sides to know like, Is this really the thing I should push through and finish? Because I can take it other places? Or is this the thing that's making me miserable, and I need to let it go? And hey, that's what you go to therapy for?
Dr. Han Ren 39:12
Yeah. You know, I don't think grad school is not a terrible thing for a lot of people with ADHD. Because you do lots of different things in grad school, and especially my program, it was like a professional research program. So I did a lot of clinical work. I did a lot of research, I did a lot of reading in theory. And so that really stimulated this part of my brain that needs novelty and sensation and change. If I hated something. It was a semester long, okay. And then I could be done with it. And sometimes it was Yeah, I was powering through that I have learned and train myself from from my childhood, but that's where I came in handy because I knew I could do something else soon enough.
Patricia Sung 39:56
And a lot of people will say like, how can you have ADHD if you have a graduate degree? or you are a medical doctor or you are a lawyer. It's like, well, school is designed to change every semester. So you're constantly getting something new. But also you, generally speaking to something that you really like, love and enjoy. So, of course you're interested in do well in that.
Dr. Han Ren 40:18
You have to pick the right program, you have to know well enough to pick the right program.
Patricia Sung 40:24
It's funny how we get these like oxymorons of ADHD, like you can't focus. But yet, somehow you got a lottery like,
Dr. Han Ren 40:31
I mean, it's also structured, right? We need that structure, like I don't do well, if I just tried to structure my own time, I'll do nothing, and become really depressed. I need some external structure that kick in the butt sometimes and someone else to help me hold myself accountable.
Patricia Sung 40:49
I was speaking of being depressed and this whole pandemic thing in this last couple years, you started this TicToc, and it took off, like, why did that start? And how do you see that molding where you're going now?
Dr. Han Ren 41:01
It started kind of as a joke, because my daughter would watch tic TOCs with her dad every night. And you know, so I always like, what what is that thing, and you know, I would see them like interact, it was such a fun thing. And I knew that they were therapists on the app. So I went in and looked at some of it. And I was like, wow, this is a very basically, I can do this. And then I realized like this, these are people who tend to be white and attractive. And talking about like, life size, you have anxiety for coping skills for depression, you know, like, middle of the road types of content around mental health, which is important and necessary.
Dr. Han Ren 41:39
And I was realizing that there's a whole community that's been left out of these conversation, you know, marginalize people know, people of color, and really not talking about the intersection of systemic systems of oppression, and mental health. And that was something that I was already interested in doing the work in my own clinical work and, you know, other spaces that I was occupies, I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna talk about this. And then my daughter was like, Well, if you can get $1,000, by the end of your first month, I'll buy you a cake. And so I like, stepped it up, and should buy me cake because she got salty, but that's okay. I ended up with more than $1,000 By the end of the first month. And I was like, Okay, there's a hunger for this.
Dr. Han Ren 42:27
And I mean, just like everything with energy flows, like ebbs and flows, sometimes I really want to do sometimes I don't, and I'm learning to be okay with that. And I really think of this as, like, gosh, I can change what I talk about, I have this platform, I have this attention of a lot of people who are invested in me. And that means I can be multifaceted. I can be ADHD board and talk about this for a while and talk about that for a while. And that's okay. And I think that's really, really cool, because I try to be relatable, and I am excited about where it could possibly take me. I don't know, I don't know where it's gonna take me.
Patricia Sung 43:07
But one of the things I love is that you do talk about the things that are not in that like, middle solid, like, it just feels very vanilla like, yes, we do all need coping skills for anxiety. But like your video, it was like affirmations for horrible times and your dreams like that. I don't even know it's called the drug challenge. Yeah, thank you the drug challenge, and isn't like and, and your affirmations made me laugh so hard? Because, you know, we're always being told to these Oh, try meditation and affirmations and other stuff. And your affirmations were just so like, bought on like, it was like snarky, but yet, like, I can get behind this. I can get behind like, today sucks. But it will be better, man. I'm like, you said it better than I did. But I love it. It's it is so relatable. And it feels like I'm not just getting the like silver lining.
Patricia Sung 43:57
Great kind of a talk. And it's that being okay with saying like, yeah, this time is really hard, especially for moms, especially for those with ADHD. Anybody who's like anybody, everybody who has extra baggage they're carrying around right now, where this doesn't look like what we thought our lives were going to look like right now. And it still doesn't like the length of it is heavy when it continues on to so I so appreciate you.
Dr. Han Ren 44:25
Thank you. Yeah, it's been really cool to kind of have like, a finger on the pulse of the cultural zeitgeist of our times. And I've really felt that I mean, I'm for certain cross section. You know, I definitely acknowledge the privilege of the scope and lens that I have. But I think one of the things that I noticed totally resonate is if I can summarize that moment, that's I guess, for people. I mean, just across my clients, like okay, I'm noticing these patterns, everyone's having issues with friendships right now. Everyone's feeling a lot of rage right now. And then being able to To summarize and normalize that for people like that has been really powerful. And I think people connect and feel reassured, I'm not alone. It's not just me.
Patricia Sung 45:12
Yeah. And then that's why I started the podcast, there are so many moms out there who have ADHD, or hand have it and don't even know. And having that ability to say like, it's okay, that you're struggling with this thing. And there are actually 1000s if not millions of other people, whether or not they're moms who have Asia, that are also feeling like this, and you're not by yourself, there are other people who are dealing with all that all these suitcases as well, like, you can't see me on the podcast, I'm doing all these like motions of suitcases as, okay, what's one thing you're really proud of accomplishing, considering that you have ADHD.
Dr. Han Ren 45:49
This goes beyond ADHD, this, this is my whole life mission. A big part of what motivates me is that I don't want to traumatize my kids, it's the identity of being a cycle breaker there, you know, like, I pretty much got a doctorate in parenting, and child psychology because I want to do right by my kids. And I Oh, I knew from a very young age, like I want to have children and I want to give them a different experience. And as my kids are growing, and you know, becoming who they are, it's so beautiful and like tender and vulnerable to see the ways that they relate to themselves, their experiences in the world around them, that is not colored in shame, and deficit. And that is something that I feel so proud of just as a human and a clinician and among all the ways, and it is absolutely possible. And probable, you just really have to have that self reflection, that self awareness because most of the time, if we're really struggling with something parenting related, it's just as much about us as it is about whatever's going on in our kids. There are mirrors.
Patricia Sung 47:16
Before we do our lightning round, will you tell the mamas how they can find you and connect with you? If they're like, Ah, I learn more. Yeah,
Dr. Han Ren 47:25
I'm on Instagram at tick tock as Dr. Han Ren. And you can also go to my website, drhanren.com.
Patricia Sung 47:32
All right, lightning round. You don't have to explain anything, you just fill in the blank. Number one the best thing that I've read or listened to recently is.
Dr. Han Ren 47:41
What My Bones know by Stephanie Foo, new book.
Patricia Sung 47:44
Number two, my most boring thing about me fact is,
Dr. Han Ren 47:48
I don't know why this is such a brainstem for me. Ah, I need routine. I mean, I guess it's boring. I need structure and routine and I am learning to give that to myself when in the absence of other external factors.
Patricia Sung 48:06
Number three, but I'm having a rough day. My go to quote song poem, book activity, whatever is
Dr. Han Ren 48:13
Exercise. Yeah, I need to get that sweat in and it really helps like a good dance grew like solid beat drop.
Patricia Sung 48:22
Number four. Don't tell anyone I
Dr. Han Ren 48:24
I am very bad at it cleaning my house.
Patricia Sung 48:29
And now all the moms said, amen. Number five, if I had a magic fairy one for one spell,I would,
Dr. Han Ren 48:37
I would get out of my own head.
Patricia Sung 48:39
Okay, and the last one, number six. My best piece of advice for mamas with ADHD is
Dr. Han Ren 48:45
Go with the flow. Just go with the flow. You'll get further than trying to find it. It's a gift. It's part of who you are. It's beautiful. It's messy. Right that way.
Patricia Sung 49:01
For more resources, classes and community head over to my website motherhoodinadhd.com