Should You Take ADHD Medication? How to Make the Difficult Decision to Try ADHD Medicine for Your Child or Yourself with Psychotherapist Christina Crowe #143
How will ADHD medication affect my life?
What will my family and friends think if I tell them?
Will ADHD medication change my personality?
There are so many fears, worries, and what-if’s surrounding taking ADHD medication.
You may have heard family or cultural messages your entire life that says medication is wrong, harmful, or shameful.
With all of the stigma and negative buzz, it’s no wonder so many ADHD’ers are confused and worried about taking it.
There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of about taking ADHD medication. When you really dig into the data, it paints a very different picture -- one that deserves a closer look.
It’s “Medication May” on the Motherhood in ADHD podcast. This episode series aims to arm you with the knowledge and confidence you need to make the right choice about taking (or not taking) ADHD medication.
In this episode, Canadian Psychotherapist and fellow ADHD mama Christina Crowe discusses:
- The pros and cons of taking ADHD medication, and the surprising risks of untreated ADHD
- Questions to ask when you’re choosing a doctor to treat your ADHD
- What to consider when deciding if medication is right for you
- Christina’s thoughts on “big pharma” and the idea that the pharmaceutical industry is profiting off of mental illness medication (and other common fears)
- Christina’s personal journey with ADHD diagnosis in her late 30s and her biggest struggles with parenting her ADHD child
- The difference between mindfulness and meditation (Yes, there's a difference!)
- And more!
Thank you, Christina, for joining us and offering your incredible knowledge and insights!
To catch up with Christina on Instagram, follow her at @digalittledeepertherapy
Or follow her Facebook Page: Dig a Little Deeper Therapy and Counseling
Visit her website: https://digalittledeeper.ca/index.html
Christina's ADHD resource page: https://digalittledeeper.ca/adhd-resource-hub-ontario.html
Listen to Christina's "Vagal Brakes" playlist for when you feel stressed or overwhelmed: https://music.apple.com/ca/playlist/ccs-vagal-brakes-playlist/pl.u-Ld8dsk5bgBr
Christina's book recommendation: Atomic Habits by James Clear
This material is not intended as medical advice. Please consult your doctor or a trained medical professional to find the treatment plan that best fits your personal situation.
What if you could learn an easy, 3-step system for organizing your day, sorting through your to-do lists, and keeping your commitments? What if you had a group of other ADHD moms to hold you accountable week to week?
It's all possible with Daily Planning for ADHD moms. Figure out your life in a way that makes sense for both your mom-life and your ADHD brain. Join us today! bit.ly/adhdplan
Christina Crowe 00:00
If you don't know what you're saying no to, then you don't know what you don't know. And is that true informed consent? Like, is that clarity?
Patricia Sung 00:09
Are you overwhelmed by motherhood and barely keeping your head above water? Are you confused and frustrated by how all the other moms make it look so easy. You can figure out how to manage the chaos in your mind, your home, or your family. I get your mama, parenting with ADHD is hard. Here is your permission slip to let go of the Pinterest or the visions of organization and structure fit for everyone else. Let's do life like our brains do life creatively, lovingly, and with all our might. When we embrace who we are and how our brains work, we can figure out how to live our lives successfully, and in turn, lead our families. Well, at the end of the day, we just want to be good moms. but spoiler alert, you are already a great mom. ADHD does not mean you're doomed to be a hot mess mama, you can rewrite your story from shame spiral to success story. And I'll be right here beside you to cheer you on. Welcome to motherhood in ADHD.
Patricia Sung 01:15
Hey, they're successful mama, it's your friend Patricia Sung. Today's guest is Christina CRO of dig a little deeper therapy. Now I found Christina somewhere along the rabbit hole of social media. But I fell in love with her because she was posting videos breaking down different studies and articles about ADHD into digestible information I could actually understand which unfortunately, is really hard to find. It's hard to find quality information that makes sense in an everyday way. And that's how Christina explains it. Well, she can do this because she is a registered psychotherapist and a clinical supervisor located in Ontario, Canada. She owns her own private practice, and she trains new therapist. But most importantly for us, she's a mom who has ADHD. As soon as I consider doing a series on medicine, she was one of the first people that came to mind. Now of course, I have to do my disclaimer that this episode is not a substitute for seeing your own doctor, this is not medical advice. What Christina and I are doing is equipping you to know what to look for and what kind of questions to ask and what do you want to think about when you're trying to figure out is medicine right for me? Is this a decision that makes sense for me, for my child, for our family, I want you to make this decision from a place of solid information where you've done your research with quality sources that have good information that's solid backed in science and experience so that you're not making your medicine decision out of fear. I want you to make this decision from the foundation that you've done the research, you understand, you've asked the questions, and you're making the choice that is comfortable for you. Knowing that it makes sense for you in your situation.
Patricia Sung 03:03
There is SO much information on the internet that is incorrect. The myths, the nonsense, there's so much of it out there. And it's hard to filter through all of that family opinions, all that outside noise and really trust the decision that we're making. Christina and I talk about that about how we tend not to trust our own decisions. We don't have a lot of self trust, because our whole lives someone has told us well, we've gotten some kind of message that our perception is slightly off. We weren't quite measuring up. So we'll dig into Christina's background and how she got diagnosed with ADHD. And we touch on mindfulness worry, the struggle we feel as a mother, when we're watching our kids struggle or not live up to what we imagined they would turn into or how they would grow up. Then we discuss what are some of the things that we can consider when we're deciding whether or not ADHD medication is right for us. When we hear about Big Pharma capitalizing on weakness, or we hear negative messages from family? How do we figure out what the right decision is for us? So if you're wrestling with the decision of whether or not ADHD medication is right for you, I hope that these questions in this discussion lead you down the path of making the decision that sits well in your heart. Let's welcome Christina Crowe to the show. All right, Mama, let's meet Christina, thank you for joining us today.
Christina Crowe 04:32
Thank you for having me.
Patricia Sung 04:34
So I want to start first with you and who you are because I really love featuring other moms who have ADHD because we have that connection together and understanding how our brains work. So would you tell us just a little bit about how you figured out that you had ADHD and a bit of that journey of learning about how your brain works?
Christina Crowe 04:54
Sure. So funny story. Like many adults today, I did not I know that I had ADHD until a child in our family was diagnosed with ADHD. And this happened right after I finished my graduate training to become a psychotherapist. So I was really upset that I didn't really know much about ADHD at all. And I was like, oh, jeez, like, was I sick that day, like, going back to my books, and it all clicked. So once I saw there was one particular symptom checklist that everything clicked, it all came flooding in. So really quickly, Ray was able to fortunately access and assessment for him. And then I would say, I spent the next three years like saying this is clearly all my husband's fault, this must come from his side of the family and all of his characteristics. And so spent a lot of time reflecting on how functional I was, and, you know, all the things I needed to do as a therapist, mom, to support our kid. And then, at some point, it really did start to dawn on me that, you know, wait a minute, I actually kind of have some of these things too. And it's really funny, because I think part of the reason it didn't occur to me right away, not because I'm like arrogant or anything, but because I'm in the moment and thinking about how I function today, I was probably I want to say like 37-38 Around that time. Maybe I'm really not good at math and other one of my things, but um, so I think there's so many adaptions that I made and so many things that for all the you know, dumpster fires in my life before that, clearly paint a picture of pretty severe ADHD.
Christina Crowe 06:36
Now looking back, a lot of those problems had kind of righted themselves in a really painful way. I wish it didn't take that long. But then once I went and got my assessment, I remember distinctly my assessors kind of saying, you know, if we had to diagnose you based on how you present today, I don't think we could diagnose you, you don't meet criteria. But when we listen to your history, and we have all the pieces of everything you've been through over the last, like 30 years, Wow, you're a rager like you have severe. And so I was diagnosed with moderate to severe, I think combined hyperactive type, because so like mom is certainly that is exactly how I present. And so I'm lucky in that I was able to access treatment, I knew a lot of the psychosocial interventions, obviously, and then access medication right away. And it was a transformational experience. And I knew it would be because of what you know, my kid had been through. So a really positive experience, from that perspective the whole way through. Yeah, so that was kind of how it happened for me.
Patricia Sung 07:37
When you look back at all those changes that happened along the way to get you to where you are now, like you don't look like a hot mess ADHD disaster, you've figured out the coping mechanisms that work for you. Mostly, I mean, I don't think we ever figure it all out but like, what do you think was the key that moved you along in getting to put all those pieces together, knowing that you didn't know?
Christina Crowe 08:02
The emotional dysregulation symptoms, right, the more I learned, and then the more I worked with it both in supporting our family transition. So when we changed everything in our home, which is what families are supposed to do. So like I knew how to access all this stuff. And we did the things that actually made life easier for all of us. And I was like, wait a minute, why am I benefiting from this? As a parent, right? And I've always been really conscious of a parent that I can't ask my kid do something I can't do. So I'm here like, upset that my kids like forgot stuff, and they're getting upset. And it's like, everyone's melting down at the door, and we're going to be late. And I can't even be upset with him because it's not on him to be organized.
Christina Crowe 08:48
And on top of it. It's my job as a parent to have led that I'm the one that should have the night before Did I did I did that. And so when I had those reflections with myself was like, Well, wait a minute, why didn't I do that? Well, what was I doing last night at eight o'clock on the couch and what was going on for me. So it's just a lot of mindfulness has saved my butt the whole way through. But a real mindfulness practice, it allowed me to observe myself, I think in my own environment, you know, it becomes then this question of like, well, you know, do I need treatment? Is it really mild? Thankfully, I had a family physician that was willing to kind of work with me. But I actually did get the whole psychological experience assessment because I wanted to know what my clients were going through. So it's actually more of curiosity, really about the experience to get that done. I the proof was in the pudding. I didn't need it really for any other reason. So that was a really interesting experience as well, being able to observe yourself as a few of executive function. So that takes a lot of work and medication.
Patricia Sung 09:45
Yeah, I actually, I met with my ADHD coach this morning, and we were talking about how your higher self can view your lower self doing things. And it was like blowing my mind because I I was describing it and then she, like, read back to me like this. So you're saying like you're watching yourself do stuff. And I'm like, I feel like I'm in like some kind of weird sci fi, like the matrix of like, watching myself do things and trying to convince myself of things. And I was like, well, like that whole process of learning to watch ourselves is a learned skill.
Christina Crowe 10:23
Yeah, yeah, you have tobe able to slow down long enough, so qual that internalized hyperactivity, you've got to have attentiveness to the things that are going on around you. And then you've got to be able to sustain your attention. And that's, there's a whole lot of cognitive processes going on there. I'm not a neuroscientist, but I know enough about that stuff to be able to kind of, there's like a lot of hoops your brain has to jump through to be able to do that. I mean, I will also say I think people with ADHD probably have a greater chance of being really good at mindfulness than they might give themselves credit for, because we're already in the moment. Hey, so now we're just applying intentionality and taking away the judgment. And I think if two out of three, instead of three out of three tasks we've got to learn, right, I think people with ADHD can get really good at mindfulness.
Patricia Sung 11:16
But that is incredibly encouraging. Because anytime I've talked about mindfulness, whether it's on the podcast or social media, immediately, I feel like everyone jumps out and was like, we can't do this!
Christina Crowe 11:28
well, I would think it's really important to distinguish there's different types of meditation, right? There's like the guided meditations, like you throw on your comm app, and you listen to someone walking down a beach, or that's not mindfulness. That's a guided meditation. There's like sound meditation, which is quite beautiful and relaxing. But that's not mindfulness, either. Mindfulness meditation is something really distinct and separate. And it's so easy to do all day long. In the moment, it takes practice. It's like a muscle you can learn and you can flex. But I think sometimes when people hear they've got to try meditation, or mindfulness, they're all it gets, like blurred together, and they think they got to listen to something on the comm app. And that's no, I not think about anything. I'm not dissing the comm app. I like the calm app. But I mean, so those two come don't really work. For me. What works for me is mindfulness. So I just wanted to clarify like, really specifically, that's what I'm talking about.
Patricia Sung 12:19
I'm like, oh could still go down this rabbit hole, and I really want to, but I'm like, Oh, you're sharing it. And I just appreciate the distinction. And understanding that mindfulness and meditation and all that like all that together is one big giant blob. And it's not. So the same, they're all the same. And it's not one thing, there's lots of different pieces, lots of different layers, and, oh, I'm going to Moraine it in and I'm gonna hold that thought for some other time that I really want to talk about. Okay, stay on on track. What would you say are the two areas that you really excel in as a mom with ADHD, like how your ADHD makes you a really great mom? And then of course, conversely, where do you struggle a lot in motherhood because of your ADHD?
Christina Crowe 13:01
Oh, these are hard questions. Welcome to my therapy session, guys. I know I'm gonna, oh, I think what I'm good at is that the day the diagnosis came for my kid, like that week, I immediately observed any of the like, sadness about it, or worry or fear that I had I knew wasn't because of him. It was because of I really recognized like, oh, wait a minute, my hopes, quote, unquote, about what he would become or worrying about his potential, all that kind of stuff was all about me and me and me, and actually had nothing to do with him and who he was, I recognized him getting the diagnosis was an opportunity for me to get my head out of my ass, and actually get to know this child I have, instead of the child I thought I was creating. It was a very humbling moment.
Christina Crowe 13:57
And I think being able to put my shit aside and focus on the person in front of me is him. I don't know if I'm good at it. I knew I needed to do it immediately. And I was immediately kind of like, ashamed and devastated that I hadn't known that really, that I was like, uh, you know, you learn like, I'm gonna teach you how to read. I'm gonna teach you how to do this stuff. And you're gonna have all these experiences and expose you all these things. You're gonna be amazing, like, you're my kid, but all the things we do. We have all these hopes and dreams for our kids. And it's something's wrong. You know, it can be as minor as the first time they need glasses. It's like, Oh, my God, he doesn't have perfect eyeballs right to something like this. Right? And, and I just knew it. And I think what actually gave me the capacity to be that in that moment is because before I was a mom, I was a stepmom. And so I had two other amazing kids in my life that I let them guide me as to what our relationship was going to be and let them lead. So I think I've I've always honored kids and honored them as teachers and teaching them about me. So I would say that's what I continue to do well, is I want them to tell me who they are and then I'll I'll follow suit not rather than the other way around. What am I not good at? Ah, should invite them in here for that.
Patricia Sung 15:08
Not really something you're not good at but what do you find more difficult and you know that that has to do with your ADHD.
Christina Crowe 15:15
So I worry a lot. So the intensity of worry of needling in on things that are not going to matter. Nevermind in five years, they don't matter tomorrow, right? So the emotional intensity piece like yeah, I'm, I'm still human, like something goes off scale. And it's like, Oh, my God, it's the end of the world. And I'm pretty quick to recover from that versus me 10 years ago, or me 20 years ago, but that part, I think, bugs me the most is I wish I were a more lighthearted or carefree mom than I probably am. Like, when I am I am putting effort into it.
Patricia Sung 15:51
I was like, yes, me too. So much. So as I there's so many times where I wish I was fun, mom.
Christina Crowe 15:57
Yeah. ADHD, we should. Are we supposed to be fun? Right. So I don't know. I don't know if like the guys get to be fun ADHD and the women don't I don't know. I'm not a perfectionist. I don't think for sure. Like, I had to be too responsible to young like a lot of us and internalized a lot of that stuff. And I think that's it. I don't know that I played enough as a kid. I might try to play as much as I can now as an adult. But it's, it's hard because I'm responsible. Right? Yeah.
Patricia Sung 16:28
Now I'm like, oh, that's like a whole again, that's another rabbit hole. I wish I could jump down with where we have we so often come from families where we were required to be more adult than have at that age.
Christina Crowe 16:41
Our ADHD families are like ADHD is genetic. To a large extent, right. And then very few people in that generation are diagnosed and treated. Nevermind. So it runs rampant. And so that's why it feels like everyone has ADHD because well, you know, you're in the pool of it in your mix and your family extended family and uncles grandparents. So you know, it makes sense from that lens. But then that's also why a lot of the behaviors seem normal. Oh, it's like that as a kid nothing's wrong with me. I turned out okay. And it's like, Uh huh. Okay. That's what I tell people all the time. I was like, why are you here, then? Right there. So there's something going on? Because you're here with me. So let's talk about that.
Patricia Sung 17:22
That one gets me every time. Even Even knowing that has made it a lot easier to not get mad at people when they say that. People say, Oh, what is it? Everyone's a little bit like that? I'm like, Oh, welcome to the Club. Your family must be one of us. That's why, that's why they feel that way. Because they're your family. So what would you say is one thing that you're really proud of accomplishing? Now that you know, you have ADHD, like,
Christina Crowe 17:49
personally or professionally or anything? I think like our family has done really, really well with it. And I think we've gotten to the place where we recognize all the strengths that it brings to us. So I'm to be clear, I am not in the ADHD is a superhero camp. That's cool, if you like that. And I actually don't even know for sure your position is on that. I think you recently mentioned that.
Patricia Sung 18:09
I think we're in the same camp. But I'll let you finish.
Christina Crowe 18:13
So there is a place where there's gifts. But before we get to the gifts, we have to untitled in knots. So I think we've untied all the knots, there's a real freedom in knowing yourself and and knowing your brain really well. And knowing why you do the things that you do. And coming to terms with, it's actually really neat to be able to think in a nonlinear way. And to do all the things that I can do. I couldn't do any of the cool things that I do if I didn't have ADHD, I don't think I mean, maybe over the course of my whole lifetime, but I don't think I would have done any of them. By the time I was 40. That's for sure. So I'm lucky in a lot of ways. And a lot of the experiences I've had that I've been fortunate enough to have bounced around enough that nothing really completely derailed my life, although it could have there's a lot of near misses and errors. I'm sure a lot of people with ADHD can look back and find themselves. So I think I'm just really proud of the way that even though it was really hard that period of time after diagnosis for all of us as a family like trying to wrestle with it, we did it we did the work together. And I think we all know each other really well. And we're closer than ever. Yeah, I'm proud of that.
Patricia Sung 19:20
That's like, that's a perfect note. And I'm like, Oh, we'll end there. And let's move topic, I'm like, that makes me really happy. It's encouraging. I know, this is one thing I always worry about is when we talk about these kinds of things were like, I didn't really struggle with that portion. Other people feel like they should have also not struggled with that portion. And what I've kind of been like mulling over is how do I normalize that we all struggle with different things. And just because we didn't struggle with this thing doesn't mean we didn't struggle with that thing. And that instead I want to take that as encouragement of it is possible to go through that without all the struggle or not without but with less struggle because there's a lot of moms who will listen into this at some point and know that eventually their kids probably going to have that diagnosis. To know that it is possible to work through that with less struggle than more struggle, like, it is an option. Yeah, instead of it being like Uber positive, the world is sunshine and rainbows and nobody has problems.
Christina Crowe 20:18
Yeah, I mean, for me, I think there's a couple things going on. But the one way, for me personally, as a mom, that I think what taught me that skill was actually in that. So in that moment, when I said, I had to stop and get to know my own child, like, wait a minute, who are you actually, because the things that are easy for him are his brain is amazing to me, but we don't have strengths in the same places. So there's things that he can do that I can't do. And I just I watched him with wonder, I'm amazed by the things he can do. And I'm also confounded and driven bananas by the things he can't do that I can do. I mean, there's like socialization and gender differences there. But he's amazing. Like, it's, it's a joy to like, watch him evolve and grow and become the person he's becoming. And it's nothing like me, and a lot of ways. So knowing that boundary, so having healthy boundaries, knowing that my experience is valid, and it doesn't have to be the same as other people. So there's a boundary exercises that I think when you're kind of working through all of this stuff, from a mental health point of view, become really helpful to frame up how we think about ourselves and other people and other people's experiences versus our experiences in life.
Christina Crowe 21:26
And then, you know, if you zoom up 10,000 feet, and you look down at things, I think people with ADHD have always had this inner knowing about themselves. So if you were diagnosed as a kid, well, then someone told you as a kid what it was, but if you didn't know what it was, if you were always messing up and not quite sure, and maybe a beat off and a little bit laughing a beat off at the joke and the person who people kind of ignored sometimes even though you are quote unquote, popular, like awkward in conversations every now and if you grew up having experiences like that, then you kind of grew up knowing that there was an inside you and an outside you. And until you're diagnosed, there's no opportunity really to have that make sense. And once you're diagnosed, and you actually really, truly understand what he is, then all of a sudden that stuff snaps into view and it makes sense. So then I think then it becomes easier to see. Because you've always had a different experience than you because you've always looked to external people to validate your experience, right? Because you can trust yourself, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. So then when it comes to this part, well, it's kind of like, well, it wasn't like that.
Christina Crowe 22:33
For me. It's just really what I have them because you're constantly trying to make it okay, based on what other people are telling you rather than saying like, it doesn't matter what other people are telling you. If you're having that experience that's yours, that counts, because you've been living your whole life with getting the message inadvertently. It's not like your family meant to give you that message that your voice doesn't count. I mean, maybe they did, but let's just assume they didn't, right? Yes, by this, I think it all it all comes together. It's nice to have the guidance of somebody who either has ADHD or knows it really, really well because maybe their kid does or their partner does or whatever to right. If that makes sense.
Patricia Sung 23:11
That was beautiful. And I loved it. I loved every minute. And I was like, she's like putting the right words to the things I think about in my head of I've really been wrestling with this whole concept of self trust and how the messages we've received throughout our life are that we are perceiving things incorrectly. And that's how we develop this distrust of our own perception. And that's why else to validate it. Yeah. So when you're constantly slightly offbeat, you're also constantly going like, Okay, how do I course correct, like, what, oh, I should have done a little more of this. And yet somehow, even though you know that you're off, and you're constantly trying to mitigate that problem, you still don't ever seem to catch up. And that's where I think a lot of women with ADHD struggle, especially people who are getting these super late diagnoses of like, I have spent my whole life with the message, whether purposeful or not, that I'm slightly off and not correct. And so you're constantly trying to like realign everything. Never trust your own judgment.
Christina Crowe 24:09
Yeah. And never corrections. Perfectionism. Yes.
Patricia Sung 24:13
Correction drive, and then think it was just been weighing on me is how do we start to change that narrative? That's where my hyperactivity comes in, is that little hamster wheels constantly spinning of how do we start to encourage women to trust themselves? Because they are correct. Just because you didn't follow up with everybody's perception doesn't mean your perception was incorrect. It was just different. Anyway, here I am getting off on another tangent, but yeah,
Christina Crowe 24:35
I got big thoughts and feelings about that question. But I mean, that's a whole other ball of wax.
Patricia Sung 24:40
Right? Well, what I'm like, whoo. Okay, well, we're gonna have to do like an Instagram Live to dive down. I'm like, okay. But again, I'm supposed to be talking about medicine here. So let me get onto that topic. So the reason I reached out to you is that a little while back, you had posted a video then when you explained why somebody would want to take ADHD medicine, like it was short, because also, when people make such long videos, it was like two minutes, and it hit all the highlights.
Patricia Sung 25:09
In a world of social media, it was like, thank you for explaining this in two minutes, that was lovely. And it hit all the points. And I was just like, when I when I started thinking about wanting to do this medicine series, that video was like, in my head, like, I got to talk to Christina about this topic. Because when we think about should I take ADHD medicine? All the fears come in, all the questions come in all the horrible information on the internet comes in. And we're making these decisions, usually out of fear, because we don't know enough to truly make the best decision for us. Again, going back to that self trust diatribe, I just did. Like, we don't trust that this is the right answer for us. And we listened to all the outside opinions. And your video just perfectly explained it. So I've kind of wanted to work through the key points that you talked about and help the mom listening, understand, in her own heart, why would this make sense for me? And then how can I make the best decision given this information that I've learned and wrestled through that instead of out of fear? Stepping into it with I've done my research, I understand why I'm doing this. And I wholeheartedly am ready to take that step, if that is the path they want to go down. So you started out with the question of someone had asked you this question you're answering about is being neurodivergent less than and then does that mean that Big Pharma is just over here, capitalizing on our weaknesses, and making all their money to fill their wallets? And, you know, take advantage of us? Right? So how do you respond when people ask that question?
Christina Crowe 26:51
I will say of all the things that have ever been a tough decision for me the decision to give my kid medicine and for me to take medicine was never a hard decision. So there's maybe a couple of reasons for that. I mean, I think we all are raised with different values and beliefs and stories and narratives about medicine and our families. So so everyone comes from our own personal background, my mom's a doctor. So I kind of grew up with medicine around me. So it's never been something that seemed mysterious or foreign. My first career before I did this was in pharma and biotech. I am not unfamiliar with medicine on any level. So I've always had a comfort level there. So I will say that when I didn't really know anything, and when I was a wee young therapist about ADHD, and I was kind of like anxiety and mood disorders, and maybe some trauma was my wheelhouse. There's no point at which I think I had occasion to say to a client, I think it's time to talk to your GP about medicine, because the efficacy of psychotherapy and antidepressants, for example, in without a lot of comorbidity.
Christina Crowe 27:57
So a fairly, you know, like simplistic case, are equally efficacious. And then together, they're more efficacious. So someone who was continuing to really struggle, and of course, you know, we would recommend that. But with ADHD, it's a completely different thing. So the efficacy of psychostimulant medication for ADHD is so head and shoulders above what psychotherapy by itself would offer that it's almost unethical to continue to offer psychotherapy without providing that education. And a lot of people will go do therapy, and then it won't go well. And they'll feel like they failed therapy, and walk away demoralized interjected, if they don't know that ADHD therapist couldn't catch it, or if they haven't, they're not medicated. It has nothing to do with your ability to work hard. It's your ability to stay consistent. And that is kind of part of the central issue with ADHD. Right? So it became really clear to me really early, and then just having our own experience that this was the way to go. I'm reading the guidelines. I'm looking for the evidence. I'm reading global guidelines, not just Canadian guidelines, like we've got 100 years of data and recommendations and best practices. So there's that stuff, the whole question of like, Oh, my God is my kid have to be on this for the rest of his life? Like, yeah, you could ask that question. You could also just say, how about we just try this for a month and see how it goes? Because the proof is in the pudding.
Christina Crowe 29:20
So the other thing that's different about these medicines, so I think there's lots of myths to unpack one of which is like, you know, when you start an antidepressant, which a lot of people are familiar with, it takes eight weeks, maybe 12 weeks to know whether you're reaching peak efficacy. There's maybe some side effects, you got to push through night sweats, things like that grogginess, all that kind of stuff, some nausea, maybe, and then maybe it's going to work maybe it's not we're not really too sure yet. And if it does work, that's amazing. Because we need the benefit if it's working, but if it's not, that can be really frustrating. Stimulant medications like you know, within an hour and a half, whether that soccer is working, and it may not be working to full capacity. City. So we've got to track our symptoms and then titrate, that dose to manage symptoms just like you would with blood pressure. If anyone out there has high blood pressure, you go to the doctor, they give you your blood pressure pill, and they're treating to a target, and you have to get to that number. And until you get to that number, you need to be doing all the lifestyle interventions and changes as well as dealing with the dose of your medicine, because that's the goal of treatment. And so if it's really clear, like what's your goals here? So then, for me, my thinking is like not wanting to do something now for a benefit, or a fear for something later is like, it's the medical version of time blindness.
Christina Crowe 30:35
So for me, I'm like, Okay, well, what's the downside of not treating this kid? Holy shit, there's a mortality rate, an average 22 years loss of life for untreated ADHD, addiction, going to jail? Divorce. I mean, it's not pretty. And I'm just like, okay, if I'm going to treat him, it's just to prevent all that crap. So I think early on, it's a hard decision in the sense that you don't want to make the wrong move. And you don't want to give your kids something that you don't think is safe. So the safety data is there. The one thing I will say is that in Canada, we have pretty clear first line recommendations, and they're all long acting Stipe of psychostimulants. No one's getting short acting stuff. I mean, there might be the odd person getting it here or there. But it's for like a very specific reason. It's not the norm. Whereas I think in the US, everything still prescribed, I could be wrong. So I don't want to either still a pretty good mix, speak. Yeah, if you're on a stimulant, you're on a long acting stimulant, in the safety data for one of them in particular, that's a pro drug is quite reassuring. So I didn't have any worries there. So for me, I don't know, it doesn't really answer your question. Like, it was kind of simple. And then the big pharma thing.
Christina Crowe 31:48
So my response in that video was probably something along the lines of, you know, these are charities, they're not philanthropic organizations, they're research based organizations that are for profit, they're using that money, you know, for themselves, or whatever, is dividends, shareholders, all that kind of stuff. But they're the ones making the medicines that are improving our lives and curing diseases. So, you know, feel how you want to feel about Pharma. But if God forbid, anyone in my family gets cancer, I'm going to be lined up to get the best treatment I can get. And I'm really grateful that this treatment exists because it transformed our family's life. So I don't know. I mean, again, I want to respect everyone's experience or perception of Pharma. I mean, it is what it is, but I have not had a bad one. So from my own personal experience, I can only speak to that. And I also know that there's a lot of people who can't afford some of the medicines and the companies pay for it. I have loads of clients getting it almost completely covered from the company. So we're not making money on anybody. It's costing them money. You know, that's pretty great.
Patricia Sung 32:52
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Patricia Sung 34:32
Like I want people to understand that idea of yes, they are for profit businesses, but they are the ones doing the work. They're the ones doing the research and the testing and all that cost money and people who can afford it are paying and the people who can't there's usually not always but there's usually some kind of savings program available for a good portion of medicines may not be the one you want, but there's one there.
Christina Crowe 34:57
We have links to the American link Oxford stuff as well as the Canadian ones on our website, because I think it's important to provide that information.
Patricia Sung 35:05
Thank you. Now, that's good to know. But all that research cost money, quite a lot of money. And that's what you're paying for. And it is hard as a family for a lot of people to make those payments, but know that they're not there to capitalize on our weakness. They're the ones doing the research and putting the money in and the effort to actually find the answer for us. That's how we have there's like a lot of layers to that onion.
Christina Crowe 35:33
So it's good to try and get to know that right here in my home, me and my kid, between the two of us, there's a decision that we're making my husband and I and our kid, I can't solve all the problems of Big Pharma and the economy, government, like that's I'm not my kids not going to pay the price. For those people's problems, I'm not going to let that happen, as my job as a parent is to protect him from that I personally think whatever conflict I have, I'm going to sort that out. But I'm not going to he's not going to suffer in the meantime, if I can help it. Right?
Patricia Sung 36:04
And it's, I think, I'm guessing like, these are all questions from the audience. And when I read between the lines of the question, there was a lot of stigma within the family of taking medicine and the quote unquote, Big Pharma and all this that comes with it. And what I interpret the question to me, and obviously reading between the lines is that they feel like they shouldn't take medicine, because their family is telling them it's all a scheme from these companies to take your money, right. And that's not what it's about, like, don't run, they're gonna play any money. But it's not about them. It's about you.
Christina Crowe 36:42
I mean, you need I think, as women, if like a majority of people listening are moms and as women, I think there's a long line of people all over our lives telling us what we should do with our bodies. And without getting super political or anything, I would say, you know, what? You do you? I'll do me, I'll figure it out. And it's okay to experiment. So it's okay to do a medication trial and see how it goes, what isn't marriage, we're not getting married for life here, right? With trying this out. If you don't like it, don't take it anymore, then figure something else out. But if you don't know what you're saying no to, then you don't know what you don't know. And is that true? Informed consent, like is that clarity. So I'm not saying you have to try it in order to have clarity. I'm just saying if that particular conflict that you mentioned, is the reason why you're not trying it, then it's just like your I don't know. So I mean, if you have type one diabetes, and you wouldn't take insulin, because of that, or if you get cancer, God forbid, and you won't take the chemo, because you feel that way about the drug companies. I mean, no one can force anyone to take treatment. So if that's your value, that's your value. Because there are people who reject treatment completely. And if that's what they want to do, that's what they want to do. And we all have autonomy, we all have the ability to make those decisions. And so people have to do what they have to do. But it's okay to make a little bit of room just to have the conversation, and to talk about things that feel heavy and scary. And just unpack it, and sort it out and talking about it and being open to a discussion and feeling all the things still doesn't mean you need to do anything. So everyone's allowed to figure out what they need to figure out.
Christina Crowe 38:21
So when they do take that step, they're choosing it. It's their choice to take that step. Right. People with ADHD love to experiment, though. So while you're fighting medication, so that crowd, they're doing so much self medication, it's unbelievable. So I think something I like to do sometimes as people is actually make an inventory of all the ways they self medicate. And people don't necessarily label the things they're doing that are self medication is self medication. Like they think they're being natural and stuff. And it's just like, well, it's like Dr. Halliwell says, like, why are you wearing glasses? You should just be squinting if you believe in being natural, because glasses are the original disability aid, because squinting is natural. And so really, how far do we take this? Right? Are we allowed to just do things for ourselves and to supplement things in our body that our bodies not making? Right? I don't know. I mean, everyone's got to, again, make their own choice. So for me, that's neither here nor there, whether someone goes on medication that I'm working with, I have nothing to gain either way, my interest from an ethics point of view is upholding client autonomy, which includes someone's having all of the information for informed consent, in order to consent to clinical trial, for example, you have to know all the good things that are gonna happen, hopefully, but also all the bad things that could happen. And that's how you make a clear decision about whether you want to move forward or not. And to me, this is the same thing, when I'm educating about what the Goldstar path treatment is for, like really well managed ADHD for all the best outcomes. Here's what it is. And here's why. And let's spend some time talking through all of the things that you've got questions about. So you have all the right in information with which to make your decision. It's their decision.
Patricia Sung 40:03
Yeah. And that is the whole purpose of these conversations is to know that you mama listening, have all the information that you can or as much as you can locate, to make the best decision for you. I'm not here to tell you, you have to take medicine, I'm not here to tell you don't take it over. It's about you knowing enough information that you can make a well educated decision and not making decisions out of fear and choosing what's best for you. Because like you said, there are family members who are going to tell you, you should or shouldn't do something. And we have to take a moment and say, Are they saying it? Because this is medicine for what they view as a mental thing? Would they say that same thing to you for your blood pressure medicine or something like that? And like understanding that information, so that you can decide how much do you want to take that opinion into account?
Christina Crowe 40:52
I mean, I think also on a bit of a primitive level, which we're all beholden to, like our nervous system response, when you want to do something different than the PAC, we're setting ourselves apart from the pack. And there might be a feeling of oh, you think you're better than us? Or Oh, you think you know, you need something different than we need? Or oh, like, you're forcing a bit of a reflection for all the naysayers because we're like, Well, I didn't do anything about it. And that makes people uncomfortable. And I guess it's okay for people to be uncomfortable. What happens is that people get uncomfortable, and then we think we need to rush in and make them feel better. Like, we think that's our job. And if it's your kid, it's your job, but it's not your kid who's saying this stuff to you. It's all your peers, right? Within your family, people who are older than you and people who are like your brothers and sisters, maybe or your cousins or whatever. So there's boundary stuff there too. Right? Yeah. Someone in my family what they shouldn't shouldn't do. That's, that's not my place. Right?
Patricia Sung 41:50
Yeah. But when when you've been socialized as a woman to smooth the bumps, and don't rock the boat, there's like this urge to be like, it's okay, I'm not gonna do that and try to smooth everything out. So I also want to validate like, that is a normal response. There's nothing wrong with biological. Yeah, like, there's a reason we don't want to be separated from the herd. Because that's how people got they know left behind in the snow in
Christina Crowe 42:19
When I say biological, I don't mean like sex based, I mean, like gender based or anything. I mean, like every human doesn't want to be separated out from the pack. Like that's a human biological function of safety. We have safety in numbers. So when the numbers Splinter, we're more at risk of being eaten by a predator. So genetically, physiologically that incites agitation in the human nervous system, right? We want to be reassured, we want to know we're okay.
Patricia Sung 42:46
I want to touch back to something else you said about when your ADHD goes untreated. And that leaves us open to I think you said like we have a 22 year rule. Yeah. Can you talk in just a little bit about like, what are those ways that a lot of times we don't take into account like when we're thinking about like pros and cons of medicine, we think about like, oh, I might have a stomachache and you know, people worry about getting addicted to stimulants, which I don't know if we're talking about today. But sure, but debunk that myth in a sec, like, what are those other things that we should be accounting for in the big picture?
Christina Crowe 43:19
So the data that we have shows that people it was a huge study that was done, I think it was probably published in like 2014, or 2015, looking at over 2 million people over the span of like, 30 years. So they followed them from the age of one, two, just past the age of 30. And they looked at the people who had ADHD and this massive cohort of people, when did they die? And what did they die from compared to people who, who didn't have ADHD, so people with ADHD are twice as likely to die prematurely, and usually from accidents. So like, Who wants to go heliskiing everybody, so like accidents, car wrecks, poor health, violence, domestic violence, being a perpetrator or receiver of domestic violence, being in prison, and everything that comes with that smoking and self medicating your whole life leads to all kinds of diseases later on in life, but mostly it was accidental deaths. So that's impulsivity, and attentiveness, risk taking dopamine seeking stuff, right. And the scariest part for me about that data is, I think you'd think it was the opposite.
Christina Crowe 44:29
But women have two and a half times more of a likelihood of dying than the men did have that cohort. And so you're like, oh, geez, like what are these women are all going heliskiing like, No, it's not that it's that the longer you live with undiagnosed ADHD, the more comorbidities you pick up along the way. So undiagnosed ADHD turns into anxiety because it's pretty anxiety provoking and they LIVE with untreated or not well treated anxiety for long enough, that's pretty depressing and demoralizing. So then we got depression on top of it, and then all the things that come with that like there has a higher likelihood if you have undiagnosed ADHD, to have PTSD, and to be in toxic relationships, and all that kind of stuff, toxic workplace experiences to get divorced, all those things that kind of pile up and pile up and pile up and you get into midlife, and it's really hard, it becomes really hard that financial difficulties on top of that, and the ultimate outcome of depression, chronic and going on for a really long time could be suicide, and the rate for women with ADHD not well treated as higher than it is for men.
Christina Crowe 45:34
Holy geez, what other part of mental health does that data exists for women? I don't know that it does. So for me, the mortality data, that's the thing, I mean, that's the thing, like those are outcomes, and then the addiction piece. So like the rate of addiction in the general population is like, I think 12 13%. But in the untreated ADHD population, it's closer to 60 to 70%. Like, let's take that whole pot smoking crowd and the high school parking lot. And screen them all are self medicating. So let's treat them properly. So they don't want to do that. Because the long term effects of that is way worse. In the short term. It works great, right? But it's the long term, the data is actually starting to show that it that's not good at all. It all the endpoints that are about executive function and frontal lobe activity, all that stuff, it makes it worse, if you're under the age of 24, I guess if you're like 25, and what have you, but, you know, so we're mammals, right? Like our bodies are designed to keep homeostasis on the inside, meaning a balance of things. And so if you're constantly not having the right either receptor activity or availability of dopamine, norepinephrine to do the basic frontal lobe functions of life, your body's going to seek it out in the environment from around you. So what's available cigarettes, drugs, food, sex, gaming, all the things that are pleasurable, that allow our brains to like, feel alive, and to know that we're okay, we're going to keep going. And they're really just short term fixes, but really detrimental in the long term if it goes unchecked. Right. So I hope that answered your question.
Patricia Sung 47:11
And that's the kind of information like when other moms come to me and say, I have to decide what to do about medicating my kid. How do I make that decision? Yeah, I'm, like delicately trying to explain to them like how their child might die if they don't treat it. And it's like, an awkward conversation. But like, this is the truth. This is the data that tells us that our kids are far more at risk. And we as women are far more at risk, when we don't have a well executed treatment plan that's like well rounded.
Christina Crowe 47:41
I mean, I think even before you even get to that data is kind of like this question of what are you thinking the adverse effects of stimulants are? Let's clarify that first? Because I think there's a lot of misinformation there. So that's one thing to square away. And then yeah, it's sometimes it's like, well, what are you treating for? But what are you treating to prevent? And you can look at it both ways. And then what is treating me like, is it really like, do I need to treat away my ADHD, it's like, no, we're not actually trying to take away any of the stuff about you. That's wonderful and magical, and really cool. And stimulant medication doesn't do that. Nor should it, you might be dose too high if you feel like it's doing that. But what we're doing is, is in tying your shoelaces, so you can like run free. Like just like everybody else, we're filling your tank with gas, so you have the same amount of gas in your tank, is everyone that's going to drive the same distance every day. Like you're not having to stop at seven times from here to there to refill, which is what like a day self medicating is, is your bopping from thing to thing to thing to thing to thing, getting your head whether it's crisis management, putting out every fire and never get into your stuff. However, your life is set up that has seems like it's just happened, but it hasn't. It's your body making it happen to keep functioning. From my perspective, you know, so you can keep doing that. Or you can compare and contrast with the experience is to not have to do that. And if you don't like it, then you can go back to the way you were doing it and make some other tweaks along the way. Like it's always the choice of somebody.
Patricia Sung 49:11
I could I could sit here and talk with you forever. But I promised
Christina Crowe 49:16
We can do it. We can do a follow up maybe it's important, for sure.
Patricia Sung 49:20
When we're considering taking medicine is to look at that big picture. Well, yes, we're looking at in the moment right now too, but we're looking at the big picture. And how much are we what a thing when there's this tiny slim chance that might happen? And what are we discounting or not even considering in that big picture?
Christina Crowe 49:39
Yeah, those are good questions. And make sure you're getting medical advice from an expert. Don't be afraid to ask your doctor what their experiences with ADHD are they affiliated with big ADHD organizations with the patient advocacy groups? You know, when did you learn about it? I heard they don't teach ADHD in med school doc, when did you learn about it because you seem to know what you're doing. You can just be curious about it. It doesn't have to be like, I'm interviewing you to see if you're qualified to be my physician, though, like, they're not gonna like that. I don't think very many people would. But you can be curious about it in a disarming way that's nice that provides you with how they answer a lot of really good information, right? So it's okay to get information from lots of different places, and, you know, go with your gut man, like, you're gonna know, Patricia, when you said, like, when I talk to people who have ADHD, I think ADHD brains, like we just click and we kind of get each other. And it's kind of this really cool, it actually is represented in the literature, which is interesting.
Christina Crowe 50:36
We find each other and marry each other and then procreate and have kids, right? Because we click, we get each other. But when you find a doc, who's an ADHD doc, like, that's all it's fun. For all the people listening, when you find a therapist, or a physician of any type, who like really digs ADHD and is specialized in it. It's not because they were bored one day and decided to like find this really undertreated and underrecognized area, and specialize in it, like they probably have it, or their kid has it, or they're married to somebody with it, right. So you can, you know, let's be free to be ourselves and really explore all those things. Because I think people who are passionate about ADHD love talking about it. So if you're talking to a doctor who is not interested in talking about it, that's almost a signal right there that they're probably not the expert for you. And I know there's different constraints in the US in terms of who you can see, I don't know how that works, as well. But in Canada, at least, I think there's a little bit more freedom, trying to be referred to somebody who you know, is an expert.
Patricia Sung 51:38
Before we do our lightning round, I want to ask you that, for the most who are listening and candidates, we do have quite a few listeners who are there, do you have a really good resource or something on your website that they could connect to and find the resources that fit where they are located? People ask me all the time, and I'm not familiar with the Canadian system.
Christina Crowe 51:56
So like the states, you guys are limited by state, we're limited by province. So similar setup there. But you can go to our website. And on our ADHD resource page, which maybe you can link that page in the show I put on there. We reference two major national organizations. One is Cadac, CA, D, D, a c.ca, which is the national patient advocacy organization. So people can find clinics and assessment centers and coaches and therapists all across the whole country. It's great and amazing advocacy work that they do and like free webinars and resources and all kinds of information. And then Kendra see add Ra is the clinician Canadian ADHD resource Alliance. So that's where all the docs and psychologists and therapists and even nurses that are really interested, he joined that and so all the clinical expertise is housed there. And I don't know that they have a referral thing that the public can access. Maybe they do, actually. But if you're a clinician yourself, it's a global organization that conferences annually are amazing. So I would recommend checking it out and joining, it's totally worth it. And so those are the two things that are linked, and then there's loads of other resources linked on our website to dig into and learn more, for sure.
Patricia Sung 53:08
Okay, good, I'm happy to have that resource to refer to so thank you. Okay, lightning round questions. All you have to do is just fill in the blank. You don't have to explain anything. But number one, the best thing that I've read or listened to recently is
Christina Crowe 53:24
James Clear Book, Atomic Habits. One of my favorites.
Patricia Sung 53:29
Number two, the most boring about me fact is,
Christina Crowe 53:32
I don't really have any good hobbies anymore. I need good hobbies.
Patricia Sung 53:36
Number three, when I'm having a rough day, my go to quote, Song poem, book activity, whatever is
Christina Crowe 53:43
oh, so I actually have a specific playlist that I've made and made a blog post about it. That is a vagal brakes playlist. So it's all these songs that no matter what mood I'm in it immediately as soon as I turn it on, like lifts my mood lifts me up into a higher state of functioning, so I hit play.
Patricia Sung 54:04
Number four, don't tell anyone I
Christina Crowe 54:08
I still bite my nails.
Patricia Sung 54:10
Number five, if I had a magic fairy wand for one spell, I would
Christina Crowe 54:16
Oh, world peace right now. Like that sounds really cheesy, but I would want all of the angry people in the world to stop being so angry.
Patricia Sung 54:28
Number six, my best piece of advice for mamas with ADHD is,
Christina Crowe 54:33
oh, find an ADHD trained therapist can be really, really transformational.
Patricia Sung 54:41
Now that all the moms have fallen in love with you, where can they find you and connect with you?
Christina Crowe 54:46
Through the website is digalittledeeper.ca and from the bottom of that you'll it's on Instagram, I'm @digalittledeepertherapy. And from there you would find links to find me in other places at TikTok. It's not this Same name, I'm Stina 905, stina905 Because I had joined Tiktok just to watch cat videos not to make a work account, but it turned into an ADHD account. So that's why it's a different name. It's just the end of my name. Yep.
Patricia Sung 55:14
Well, thank you so much for joining me today and being willing to talk about this because it's a really hard topic for a lot of us to delve into. And it's full of fear and worry and I so appreciate you being willing to share and be honest and open up so that more moms can be encouraged and really lean into their ADHD brains. So thank you.
Christina Crowe 55:39
Totally. Thanks for having me. I'm happy if the information helps and provide some peace of mind for people. And at least just lets them know that there's lots of perspectives out there, and it's good to keep asking questions. Keep doing it.
Patricia Sung 55:54
Hey, there, Mama. I've got something fun for you. Who doesn't love a quiz? I want to know which mama animal are you because you're not your average Mama Bear. You have a magical ADHD brain that puts a sprinkle of brilliance on everything you do. Sure, you may have forgotten that laundry in the washer for the third time. But what are your strengths? What makes your ADHD parenting style unique to you? How do you use that sparkle to bless your family? So which mama animal are you? Find out by taking the quiz? What's your ADHD mama parenting style because you're not your average Mama Bear? Head on over to patriciasung.com/quiz and find out and then when you do I want you to post your results on social media so we can see that your hashtag, not your average Mama Bear along with the hashtag. I'm a mama and then fill in the animal that you get. Again, that's patriciasung.com/slash quiz. And I can't wait to see what you get. So tag me at motherhood in ADHD.
Patricia Sung 56:59
For more resources, classes and community head over to my website motherhoodinadhd.com