Self-Acceptance & Fair Play in ADHD Relationships with Tami Hackbarth #224
When is it too late to get an ADHD diagnosis?
For today’s guest, Tami Hackbarth, getting diagnosed with ADHD at age 53 was worth it. After years in the classroom working with copious ADHD children, Tami has plenty of strategies and tools to help those of us with neurodivergent brains.
We dove into Tami’s journey of self-discovery, self-compassion, and self-acceptance. She opens up about her struggles with sleep apnea, the impact of medication on her daily life, and the importance of Fair Play and self-care in neurodivergent families. We also talk about the value of open communication within families and the significance of guilt-free self-care.
Tami Hackbarth helps GenX women get their time and energy back so they can create the world they want to live in. She is a Life+Work Coach, Speaker, Author, Podcaster, Fair Play Facilitator, former teacher, and lifelong Californian. You can find Tami at https://www.tamihackbarth.com and on socials at:
• Instagram – @tamihackbarth
• Facebook – @TamiHackbarth100PercentGuiltFreeSelfCareCoach
• TikTok – @tamihackbarth
• Threads – @tamihackbarth
Let’s jump into a candid conversation of understanding, empowerment, and embracing the unique challenges and victories of motherhood and entrepreneurship in the context of ADHD.
Looking for support on how to treat your ADHD beyond medicine? Grab my free list of strategies and ADHD treatments, so you can get support that works at www.patriciasung.com/beyond-meds.
Tami Hackbarth 00:00
Life enthusiast. That's what I call kids with ADHD. They're very enthusiastic. They keep you on your toes.
Patricia Sung 00:08
Are you overwhelmed by motherhood and barely keeping your head above water? Are you confused and frustrated by how all the other moms make it look so easy. You can't figure out how to manage the chaos in your mind, your home, or your family. I get your mama, parenting with ADHD is hard. Here is your permission slip to let go of the Pinterest worthy visions of organization and structure fit for everyone else. Let's do life like our brains do life creatively, lovingly, and with all our might. When we embrace who we are and how our brains work, we can figure out how to live our lives successfully, and in turn, lead our families. Well, at the end of the day, we just want to be good moms. but spoiler alert, you are already a great mom. ADHD does not mean you're doomed to be a hot mess mama, you can rewrite your story from shame spiral to success story. And I'll be right here beside you to cheer you on. Welcome to Motherhood in ADHD. Hey there Successful Mama. It's your friend Patricia Sung. Today, I want you to meet my friend Tammy Hackbarth. Tim and I met at a conference last year and I just fell in love with her straight talk. She tells it like it is and yet she is so kind, so wise and genuinely wants for you to feel better about what you're doing and knowing that like you totally can make this happen. You can have success in the way that you want it. And that truly anything is possible.
Patricia Sung 00:15
Tammy is a life and work coach. She is a speaker, author podcaster fairplay facilitator, she's a fellow former teacher, and in lifelong California, and she helps Gen X women get their time and energy back so that they can create the world that they want to live in. This was such a good conversation like, as soon as you hear me talking, you're gonna be like, Oh, I know why Patricia like Sir, we, we are constantly saying the same thing. It is so beautiful to find people in your life that get you. And also to have moms that are like a smidge ahead of you that you can lean on as a mentor. And I so appreciate Tommy's wisdom in so many things that we have talked about over the last year that we've gotten to know each other. And today, you get to peek in on a piece of that. So we talked about how do we be okay with self care? Like how do we not hold guilt to that? How do we start to create this pattern of thinking about ourselves and weaving into that? You know, the idea of fair play? And how do we create a family system that makes sense for everyone. So I cannot wait for you to meet my friend Tammy. So let's dive in. Let's welcome Tammy to the show. How are you doing today? Ma'am?
Tami Hackbarth 03:08
I am doing really well. I just came back from the gym. Because I have fairly recently discovered that really vigorous exercise is so good for getting my brain on track. I'm like, Oh, I hate that. But it works. So I am feeling really good. This morning. I was feeling a little antsy. And then now that I've hit the gym, I'm like, Oh, I can focus and have a good afternoon. So I'm doing really well. What about you?
Patricia Sung 03:38
Actually having a pretty good day might get lost? I've done I had some good conversations today. And I'm working on my retreat, some lame boring things like reading contracts, which are like, contracts. But when you know what it's for, why am I reading these long, terrible contracts, then it makes it a lot easier. So I cannot wait to jump in. So I'm going to start back to the like, reverse about like a year ish. Tell me about what prompted you to get diagnosed, ma'am. And the like mini version of how that went? And yeah, we'll just go from there.
Tami Hackbarth 04:11
Okay, so it's funny, I'll start with the most recent thing, and that is I have a daughter that has ADHD. And she very, very clearly had ADHD from early like, I was like, at her two year appointment. I was like, so can we talk about this? And the doctor was like, she's a little small. And I'm like, I know, but she's very fancy already. So can we you know, move this down the road here? And she said, oh, we'll definitely be having conversations over the year and I was like, terrific. So in other words, she presented like quote, like a boy, very, very impulsive, all the things and I was like, Rock on. Like, I see what we're working with here. I used to be an elementary school teacher, which meant that I got to hang out with blood have tiny co workers that I used to call life enthusiast. That's what I call kids with ADHD. They're very enthusiastic, they keep you on your toes, they're moving in their groovin. And you're like, please do not poke your neighbor. Okay, let me help you with this paper tracking system. So I had a weird amount of knowledge about how to help kids that have ADHD. Because when you're a teacher, you're like, oh, look, I have two handfuls of them. This is terrific. One year, I had 14 boys in my class, and six girls, and I swear almost every boy had ADHD. So that year, we started our day with running.
Tami Hackbarth 04:18
I was like, we're having running club, and they're like, shut up. This is amazing. I was like, I know. And I was like, Do you know why we do that? And they're like, why I'm like, because you need to screw your lids on a little bit tighter before we come in the room and try to dive into the thing I'm here to do, which is to teach you stuff. So let's do some exercise first. So long story long. As my daughter got older things that were very familiar to me started happening, like she was out during the pandemic. And she didn't go back to school, she left mid third grade spent all fourth grade at home, and all the way till after Thanksgiving break of fifth grade. And when she got back in fifth grade, she started avoiding peers during recess, she started being the helper of the teacher, she started hanging out in the library, she started talking about reading under the stairs. And everyday, she would tell me something and I would think to myself, I used to do that. Please do that. And after like the 100th time of me going, I used to do that. I was like, Wait a second. Tell me more about this. She's like, it's just overwhelming. I feel like there's too much drama. I can't keep up. I don't know what to say to these people. I was like, Oh, my God, what's happening here? And I just started doing, you know, I had gone through the whole process with her where you see all that like the Vanderbilt and the this and that and you're like, oh, yeah, all of that. Me too. And I thought, but do I really? So I called my primary and I said, Hey, can I get on the evaluation list? She's like, here's the number. I went over, I got the number. And then it took me almost a year to actually get through all the hoops because I missed an appointment because my phone was on Do Not Disturb.
Tami Hackbarth 10:10
I missed an appointment, because I was waiting next to the phone, but missed the appointment. But I couldn't do anything else that day. And every time I talked to a practitioner, I would be like, Oh, I missed the appointment. Because of this. They couldn't stop laughing. And I was like, do you hear this all day? And they're like, yes. So yeah. And then I had in that whole other process of getting through the evaluation, they're like, you know, you've got a lot of trauma in your background. Are you sure it's not that I'm like, Well, I have been to every single kind of therapy there is in the entire universe. So I have dealt with my Asus, thank you. They're like, we have sleep apnea. And I'm like, that's true. And I cannot sleep with that machine. And they're like, Wow, sorry, we can't do anything for you until you get your sleep apnea treated. And I was like, alright, somebody just threw down some gauntlet of their daring me not to do this. So now I've been successfully sleeping with a CPAP for almost a year. And I was like, you give me another hurdle. And I'm going to do it. Again. Long story long. I just got my diagnosis in January, at age 53. I started taking medication when I finally met with a psychiatrist, you know, because there's like, it would seem 400 steps to get to the psychiatrist who's going to do the final evaluation and go, yes, here's medication. I did the classic. He's like telling me about yourself. And I talked nonstop for 20 minutes. And he asked like one clarifying question that he asked me about self care. And as you can see here, I have a giant blowup poster of my book cover that is called The Essential Guide to 100%. guilt free self care. And he looks over my shoulder and he's like, you literally wrote the book on it. I'm like I did. I did. And he's like, man, it seems like you've got so many skills. He's like you have pieced this together. You have written a book, started a business, raised a kid change career successfully three, tie all these things. And I'm like, Ah, and he's like, Oh, I wonder what's going to happen when you get medication. I was like, I know. I am also curious about that. And I have to say, I thought oh, my god is everyone's brain so quiet. Why can I map now? Why can I finish unpleasant tasks? Dang it. Yeah, it's crazy, huh? Yeah. And he was like, he was so kind. Patricia. He was like, I think you've suffered enough. He's like, you've been living with us for more than 50 years. And I was like, I remember one time after my daughter started taking medication and everything that used to be so hard for her got easier. And I remember looking at her and saying, Oh, honey, I didn't realize you had been trying your hardest at literally every single thing in the world. And she was like, I have been trying to tell you that my whole life and I was like I get it now. Yeah. And I was like, I'm so glad that there is a tool, because it's not just medication, right? There's the fills part. There's the working with coaches, there's all of that. But there's that one little piece of the puzzle that you're like, Oh, that was a really helpful tool. I love having the right tool for the job.
Patricia Sung 10:22
What would you say that you do differently now that you know that you for sure have ADHD,
Tami Hackbarth 10:28
I beat myself up a lot less, who can clap? A lot less. And what's crazy is I have had a very, very active self compassion practice for you know, at least a decade, like a very conscious practice, and meditation practice all of the all of us. And yet still, I was like, I always had in my mind, why are you so behind? Why don't you have that figured out yet? This is my favorite. Everybody else can do it. Why can't you finish it? Why can't you do it? Why can't you follow through? And it turns out, it's really, really hard to focus when you have 500 tabs open all the time. I like if you were to say like with medicine, how many tabs do you think you have open now I have 500 open and I can focus on the five that I need. As you know, when my medicine wears off, I'm still going to need that breadcrumb trail back to what I was supposed to be doing. But I can focus on the smaller details within the bigger picture. Like my word of the year this year is fulfill and with the idea of like, I would like to complete something, I'd like to have that sense of accomplishment of you ticked all the boxes all the way till the 100%. You didn't get to 76. And go, I'm done. And so I'm able to attend to this. Now, the first few months on medication, I was like, Oh, I am going to be cleaning the universe forever. This is the best thing that's ever happened. As apparently the honeymoon of medication has gone on. I'm like, Oh, look, there's still things I don't want to do. There's still things I don't really see. There's still things that I'm like, Oh, that's a work in progress. But the judgment of my ability to be an adult has gone way down. That is beautiful. It's a relief. And I'm less irritable. And my frustration tolerance has gone way up. I didn't realize how tired I was before. Like so many things have been made easier.
Patricia Sung 12:34
Yeah, whenever people are like, Oh, I've been diagnosed with chronic fatigue. I'm like, huh, let's ponder that for a moment. I'm not saying you're not tired. I'm asking why are you so tired?
Tami Hackbarth 12:45
How many tabs do you have open? And how many pieces of your attention have gone into each of the tabs today? Yeah.
Patricia Sung 12:53
Because when you're dividing your attention amongst 500, there's not a lot to go around.
Tami Hackbarth 12:57
Right. And the other thing that really, really, again, should have been a clue early on. When I was a teacher, I had a really, really hard time doing like thematic planning, like the big picture planning. I was like, how do you guys do that? Like, how do you envision these things, you know, and I would sit there and like, take copious notes. And I was like, Well, this is not my forte, but let me tell you, you get me in a classroom with a point that needs to be made. Like you better watch this performance children because things are happening. This is top tier performance here. I'm gonna have to go have to go next door to find out what we're doing later. But right now, in this moment, you are learning the hell out of math right now, those multiplication facts, they will be in your brain, because I have 42 different ways. Oh, you don't like it that way. Try it this way. You don't like it that way? Try this way. So again, when I started, you know, pulling back in my own experience and looking at where my daughter has struggled. I was like, Oh, I struggle with that, too. So what have I done? I like really dug into, Hey, can I borrow your brain person? Because I don't see things the way that you do. For instance, taking care of a house being an adult homeowner, there's certain things that are really obvious, but then there's all of the things that aren't in your like, Oh, you mean laundry isn't just one step that somebody says go do laundry, it's like, well, we're gonna need to fill in the blanks. Yes,
Patricia Sung 14:22
yeah. Oh, man. I'm like my brain is like firing 52 things at once. And I'm like, rein it in. Patricia. You can only talk about one at a time. I have to ask first when you say that your goal this year is to have the fulfilled project. Do you know what that is? Do I know what the project is? Yeah. You said like you wanted something to completion for if this word fulfilled Do you know what that is? Yes, I do. Because you either tell me
Tami Hackbarth 14:46
okay, do you listen to the Gretchen Rubin podcast
Patricia Sung 14:48
called happier? I have Yes. But not recently, but I have. Okay,
Tami Hackbarth 14:51
so one of her and her sisters. exercises they do with their listeners is to create a list of things that they want to do so in my I I 24 things that I want to do in 2024. Some of them are really small, like whiten your teeth, check already did it. Some of them are bigger, like rewrite the copy on your website. Like it's that granular stuff you don't I mean, and so yes, I do have plans. So I really struggle with writing copy and all that for my website. And I'm working on a rebrand because I have been in business for seven years. And I'm like, I need to take a closer look at this. So you know that I'm going to work with my good friend, Cal Vina to do a brand in a week, her courses called the brand and a week, I'm like, I am here for it. She's like, show up at nine o'clock. This is the assignment. Give me your assignment. By five o'clock tonight. Tomorrow, we'll discuss and I'm like, Girl, that's the kind of accountability that I need for unpleasant tasks, right. And so I have made peace with I don't care what I need to do to get something done. Whether it is hiring somebody to body double, whether it is to hire a coach to be like, No, let's dig into this deeper to work on delegation to teach my child how to do it. It does not matter to me.
Tami Hackbarth 14:59
But yes, I have so many things that I'm like, Oh, I'm like 75% of the way there. Can I just finish that thing was I look at like you already have this book behind you. I do. You clearly can finish projects. You know how I finished that book. This is the best story. When I decided to my mastermind, I was working with a local group of gals here in Sacramento, California. And I said, I want to write a book. And they said, That is terrific. And one of the people said, Remember that time that you helped me with my one room challenge. I said I do. And she said you have to have some sort of event so that you'll finish. So I threw a birthday party for my book. And I pre sold the book before the party. And so I had to finish the book because people had already purchased the book. That is in a plus ABC strategy. And then the best part is I wasn't even done by the party. But it didn't matter because they'd already pre ordered we got together. We did a bunch of stuff. I had the blow up I had the cover, I had this I fed them. I had a little like bunch of my artists, friends and service provider friends come and so somebody's like, Oh, my God is like Sacramento's Instagram came to life. Everybody got to meet each other. It was at my friend's interior design studios. It was really beautiful. And then I got to hand deliver the books, who was actually really touching. It was like, Oh, my God, look at all these people who now have my words in their hands. And it was because I threw that book a birthday party.
Patricia Sung 17:40
Okay, so how are you okay, with being the person who's like, I don't care what I have to do, I'm gonna get it done. And like letting go of that, like, and I'm putting words in your mouth of like, whatever it is the shame, the guilt, like, oh, I shouldn't be able to do this. But you know, fill in the blank way. Like, how are you okay? Being the person who's like, I don't care what it takes, I'm going to make it happen. Even if I look, fill in the blank negative thing that we have now imagined in our heads, self
Tami Hackbarth 18:05
acceptance. I'm like, I'm in my mid 50s. And so I've got a lot of a lot of decades, but are like, You know what, girl, you did not finish that before by yourself. So why don't you go ahead and ask for some help. So it can just be done. And I don't have to prove myself anymore. I'm like, everybody needs help. Everyone needs help with something right? And so I need help finishing. I do not need help starting anything. Task initiation, not my problem. Not I will initiate tasks for you. I love starting things so much, right? And so I just know that when I want to get good at something, I hire help, when I don't know how to do something. For the longest time, I thought I had to know everything. And I thought I had to like appear a certain way. And now I'm like, You know what smart people ask questions and smart people can help because they do no one does anything well alone, in my opinion. Okay, I want to ask one more ADHD question. And then I want to get into why we're here in the first place. Is that, you know, as someone who is in their 50s What would you say to another person who is in the I'm like, I always say that people need to have like fancy names for old people. I'm like, I'm happy to be old. I'm glad I made it this far. I don't like need to mince words about it. Like I'm not dead yet. And that's a good thing. I worked hard to get here. Okay, so if you made it this far, yeah. And people are like, Well, is it really worth it? Like why should I bother getting a diagnosis when I'm in my 50s or 60s Like what's the point? What would you tell them? Honestly, to be able to have confirmation that you're not deficient that your brain works a different way than other people's because so many people from very young ages so I am a full on Gen X er and so many of my report cards like a official documents say not living up to her potential. I remember being eight years old and being like, Girl, Teacher, how do you know what my potential is? I know what that is insane, right? And so we get all these messages about you're a hot mess. No, I have different priorities. You never finish anything. It's like, Well, I do start the hell out of a lot of interesting things. Oh, you're a flake? No, I have limited short term memory. You're this You're that? It's like, well, actually, what I am is a very cool weirdo. You're welcome. So as you said, we're not done yet. Guess what? I will just say recently, one of my clients, who's a little bit older than me said, Oh, my God, I think the next 10 years of my life might be the best ones I've ever had. I was like, shut up. Me too. Because of this self acceptance practice.
Tami Hackbarth 18:10
Every bit of self knowledge that I have. I'm like, Oh, that explains that. Oh, okay. Okay, I see what you're doing there. Is this idea of working with yourself rather than against yourself? I think it's totally worth it. Okay. Now, on this idea of self acceptance, does that have anything to do with your love of 100%? guilt free self care? Yes, it does. Because one of my stories that I told myself my whole life, and the call came from inside the house and outside the house, let's be real well, I'm too sensitive. I'm too reactive. So I should have a T shirt that says I'm too much. I'm just I'm too much. And then all the other people would be like, Oh, my God, where did you get that t shirt? Because I want to get mine be dazzled. I am also too much. So is there a glow in the dark version? Right? So if I'm too much, I learned very early, I needed to meet my own needs, so that I could excel at life. I'm a super introvert. I'm a highly sensitive person with a trauma filled background. And I'm like, Yep, and I'm super smart. And I'm super driven. And I'm super funny. And you could do a lot worse. So I need to take exquisite care of me because that shit is an inside job. Because right now some people might be thinking, feel free self care. What is that even so when I'm talking about guilt free self care, I'm talking about the things that we do on purpose so that we don't want to run away from ourselves in our lives. So I take care of my physical body. I do tons of shit unsexy shit for my mental health. I work on my relationships. I work on my sense of greater purpose in life. I push myself out of my comfort zone, I set boundaries, like I do the ugly stuff that is so not Instagrammable that I'm like, I don't even know what to post on Instagram. Hey, guys, I went on another walk today, just like I did the day before. Hey, y'all floss my teeth. Hey, y'all. Like it's not sexy. Oh, I took some alone time. And I hid from my family in my dirty car today. So I could have some isolation, some solitude so I could get it back together. So I wasn't yelling at my family. Because I was overstimulated i 100%. guilt free self care is this idea that it's the foundation of your entire life. And when you have all the pillars of your self care on absolute lock, it kind of doesn't matter what the rest of the world is doing. Because you're like, Girl, someone's got you. And that person is you. And then the other thing that it relates to, is I have a young daughter, and I don't want her to grow up to be a doormat, I don't want her to grow up thinking that she needs to light herself on fire so that she can take care of everybody else. So if I want my daughter to do something, I have to do it. Because kids are terrible at listening to our words, and amazing at doing what we do. So I always say to my clients, hey, if you would not let your young child or your teenager, whatever trade places with you in your life as your life stands right now, and everybody has looked at me an absolute horror. Up to this point. I'm like, right. So if you don't want your kid to trade places with you give them a different model. Show them what's possible. They're like Tang, okay. Yeah, now is always a good renter. Like, oh, but when you do it, you're like, Dang, this is great. Why are more people not doing this? Because we all as you said, We're not dead yet. But we also really do only have one life. And I don't want to quote Mary Oliver here, but I could
Patricia Sung 24:35
quote via youngin YOLO.
Tami Hackbarth 24:38
Yeah, exactly. It's this idea that we take care of what matters. And we matter. Yeah.
Patricia Sung 24:45
Because when I think about that, I'm like, Oh, I feel like I'm mostly there. I'm not 100% There's a certain person, I'm like, Oh, I don't want kids to get them. Right. But if I look back to like, where, you know, 2018 Patricia was I'm like, Alright, we made some progress. This is some good Step, but it very quickly highlights what it is. And I'm like, Oh, this is where I need to zero in. This is where I would not just plunk my kids and be like, here, you take over check in.
Tami Hackbarth 25:10
Right? And so that's a great question for your listeners right now is just take a look at any aspect of your life. Would you want your most beloved person? Let's be real. Yes, you know, we love our spouses, but we're really there for the kids who are like, Hey, would you take them as you are now? And trade places with them? Like, I'm sure you'd be like, Oh, my God, I'm such a great mom. And yes, I would love to be a child. When I'm the mom, that would be terrific, because that would be very different than I was raised. But would you want your kid to be you? Would you want your kid to put everybody else first? Would you want your kid to not take care of their mental health or their physical health? And also just another thing when we don't take care of ourselves? Our needs don't go away. They get squished down. And you know what happens when you squish things down? They poke out the side? They come up at inopportune times, right? Because we're all giant toddlers, when it comes down to it. When our needs aren't met, they come out eventually, usually at inopportune times, and in an unattractive way. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's really reflecting on that moment. They're like, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Patricia Sung 26:17
Like, let that one sit for a second. Yeah, let it air out. Like along that What can you do to treat your ADHD medicines are a great way to help so many people, but they don't work for everyone. And sometimes you're in a place or a season that they're just not going to work out right now. Maybe they're not an option. I have put together a list of a ton of ideas, most of which I either have done or I'm currently doing myself to take care of my ADHD. This is like the full brainstorm list of what you can do to take care of yourself beyond medication, head on over to www.patriciasung.com/beyond-meds and grab yourself that checklist. That's www.patriciasung.com/beyond-meds for a free checklist of all the ways that you can take care of yourself beyond medication. Given that most of the people listening right now are probably moms, how is it that we as moms can be okay with taking care of ourselves? We're talking about the self-acceptance, and how it squishes out but like, what are some practical things that we can do? Like somewhere between one and three that we can actually do to like, take care of ourselves and not feel bad about it?
Tami Hackbarth 27:42
Okay, I'm gonna start with everybody picture, a three legged stool, okay. And imagine this is my family. One of the stool legs is my husband, one of the stool legs is my daughter and one of the stool legs is me. What happens if we'll call it the Papa leg gets taken care of in the kiddo leg gets taken care of. But the mama leg has termites and water damage. And just general neglect. We think it's not affecting anyone else. But it is it is because again, your needs don't go away. They just jumped your family's like, they might not know what it is. But they're like, somebody might need a nap. Somebody might need a meal, somebody might need a night away. Somebody might need somebody else to do the laundry and pick up the kids and all of that. So how do we not feel guilty? I love this question. Because guilt is the idea that you're doing something bad shame is that you are bad. And I think they hold hands a lot. Because when you think that you're doing you believe that you're doing something bad, you feel like a bad person. But you're a human being that comes with instructions. And you're like, Oh my God, but everybody's always like, Oh, they sent the baby home without the instruction manual. Now, there's some basics here, friends, and they are everybody has to sleep. Everybody has to move their body. Everybody has to eat, like your human needs. Don't go away. When you become a parent or a partner or a professional. Do we swim in a culture that says women should be selfless? Yes. Do we live in a culture where women own a super majority of the household tasks? Yes. Can we change that? Also? Yes. So my number one recommendation for people who want to make a change is to connect with other people who want to make that same change. So if you want to be somebody who exercises I hate the word exercise, because back in 2016, I interviewed 100 women and asked them about self care. And when I asked them where are you struggling and self care 100% People 100% said I don't exercise enough and I was like wow, exercise you make everyone feel terrible right now. Don't say I'm going for a 40 minute walk because that sounds like a lot. Say I'm going out for 20 and you go for 20 You come back and likely you've walked pretty close to a mile. Right? We all need this is basic human maintenance. We're not terrible people for not taking care of ourselves, right? If we use a car analogy, would you not change the oil in your car, if you don't do that maintenance, it breaks down. If you don't do your maintenance, you break down. That is why my group coaching program is called deferred maintenance. Because we all know what we need to do. We're just not doing it. Right. So get some sort of accountability support person that's like, yeah, my doctor told me I could walk for 20 minutes a day or 30 minutes a day to and then you go and you don't feel bad about it. You're like, at least somebody's happy. And that's called my doctor least one person's off my back about this chap. Right? They say that it's like you become the five people that you hang out with most Yeah, right. So you don't go to a bar. If you're trying to quit drinking, you don't hang out with the smokers, if you're trying to quit smoking. If you want to create different habits, you just got to put it out there and be like Who else needs to take a walk? So maybe you're busy? Because you got three kids, they're all playing soccer. Great. You're at soccer practice, instead of sitting in your chair gossiping with the people next you just walk around the field? Because you can double dip, right? There's years and seasons where you're like, I am really really busy. Like, yeah, and your needs still don't go my mom. Yeah. And I think looking for those places like I want to go double double dip, like where can you already work it into you're already doing like, you don't need to add more things to the list, you already do? Likely you likely need to take some things out. Yes. But until then let's double dip. Yeah, like maybe you call your best friend that you never have time to see. But you both go on a walk in your own neighborhood. Maybe you and your spouse need some connection time. Maybe you and your spouse, I know I'm gonna say it again, go on a walk, it's a great time to connect, be outside with the people that you love. Within getting away from that idea that it's like, I have to schedule this in my day.
Patricia Sung 32:56
And I must do it Monday, Wednesday, Friday, three times a week, and I have to go for 45 minutes and a half, two and a half, two and a half, two and a half. Two, it's like when you put all these rules on it, then it makes it really hard.
Tami Hackbarth 33:07
Absolutely. And every single thing that you do the tiniest little step in the direction that you're going is worth celebrating. Because it's cumulative. I started this my whole this round of my career as a yoga teacher. And when people say, Oh, I really wish I could practice yoga like well, maybe in the season your life, you're not going to go at 90 minute class. But maybe you could do one pose at your house. And people like that doesn't count says who? Actually it does count. Learn how to count. Did you do yoga? It's a yes or no question. Yeah, it's like, Yes, I did some terrific when you can maybe do more, or maybe do something else. Every win is a win. Throw yourself a parade. When you take the walk that your doctors prescribed to you. Right? Maybe your yoga pose is when you get home from the softball field. And everybody goes in the house and you find yourself for a brief moment in the car by yourself. nobody's figured out you haven't followed them into the house yet. And instead of getting on Instagram and doom scrolling about how everybody's life is better than yours, because you're not getting anything done. You sit there with your eyes closed until somebody comes and knocks on the window, which we know will not be very long. But that pause can make you go. Have you been moving 1000 miles an hour. My brain is moving 1000 miles an hour. Oh, a pause. I do have time for a pause. I do have time for a walk. I do have time to connect with people. One of the things that I spent a lot of time thinking about is how can I help people realize that everything is possible and you're like why can't become an astronaut and like well maybe you can maybe but with that attitude, you cannot. But can we open the possibility that you could, I don't know, go to Space Camp, you could read a book about Sally Ride, you could go to the Science Museum, you can get on the path of the thing that you want. And also, maybe you're halfway down that path. You're like, this sucks. Let me try something else. Because you know, we have a lot of interests over here. That's okay, too. What's not okay as being like, everything sucks. I'm powerless to do anything. We have agency, we can make decisions.
Patricia Sung 35:34
I want to go back to a you said every win is a win. Why do so many of us especially when with ADHD, discount that those wins are not wins?
Tami Hackbarth 35:44
Well, I don't know if you know this, but ADHD years. Oh, wow. Perfectionism, they it's actually a special talent, right? If I did not become an astronaut, then all the books I read on space were for nothing. Nothing. It's all I'm a loser. Because I think like, I don't know, this technicality. I know that everyone has a negativity bias, right? And you're like, what is it negativity bias. It's when you have a review at work. And your boss gives you glowing, glowing things that they're just like, we couldn't do this without you. You're such a great asset in this way. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they're like, but you're late. And the only thing you focus on is that you're late. That's your negativity bias. Right? Your negativity bias keeps you alive. You as a modern person, not that different than our ancestors. Right. So we had to look out for saber toothed tigers. That's why we notice when things are amiss, it's so we don't get eaten. So one of the things that I do again, with my clients, I do this with my family, I do this with everyone. And everyone's like, that is so dumb, but it works is I'm like, can we notice five things that are going well, right now, let's start with I'm not getting eaten by a saber toothed tiger who? That's terrific, right? My house is not on fire. In fact, it's a beautiful day today. Because when we train our brain to notice something other than the deficit, it changes everything because you know, you start going, what else is possible? When I look for things that are possible? When I look for the solution? When I look for the celebration, when I look for the first step, one story, that I love that I think I'm not an old weight loss person, I'm a very weight, neutral person. But this story really stuck with me because somebody, I've read this in a magazine at some point, this man had lost something like 185 pounds or something. And everybody was like, Oh, my God, how did you do that? And he got all Zen on them. And he said, I didn't lose 185 pounds, I lost one pound over and over and over again. I was like, Oh, that was a sick burn, sir. You just took everybody's excuse for not trying things away from them. If I cannot be an astronaut, I can't take steps towards me learning about space. No, those those things are not mutually exclusive. Right? So taking small steps in some direction gets you out of paralysis. And then they make their first step towards what they ultimately want. And it sucks, and most people give up. And his point is, it's going to take five years between when you start and when it matches the vision in your head. And it will never match the vision in your head if you stop before the five years. So if you need a little pick me up right now. You can say I need to suck at something for five years before it gets better. It takes the pressure off. You're like I'm supposed to be terrible at this. I'm learning this is uncomfortable because I'm not good at it. I guess I better keep going because apparently I have five years of not being great. Before I get there. Okay. Yeah, it's a process. Yeah, it's a process. Everything's process. Okay. I do have one question from my community. Katie asks, How do I remind myself about me when I'm focused on everyone else? And I don't realize that I haven't gone to the bathroom in four hours. I love this question because I used to be a A teacher. So I have this weird thing with bells. Every time a bell happens, I'm like, What am I supposed to be doing? Am I supposed to be picking up my class? Am I supposed to be eating lunch? Am I supposed to be going potty? Am I supposed to be walking people out? Um, that is a great question. And I would say, begin a tiny awareness practice. And it goes like this, set an alarm in your phone that simply ask the question, what do I need right now more than anything else in the world? Every hour, you ask yourself, what do I need more than anything else in the world? And pause? Ask yourself the question maybe even out loud using the word you because what do I need? What do you need more than anything else in the world right now, as if you're your own friend, and then check in. And you might be saying, I need to go potty turns, I haven't been in the last hour, or I'm really thirsty. Or I have a headache now, or I need to close my eyes for a few minutes. Or Ha, I'm glad you asked. I'm good right now. Just finished a meal. I remember to take my medicine, I moved my body. But you know, in the next hour, our needs change, right? Because the best self care is responsive self care, which is constantly asking yourself, what do I need right now, because what you need when you have a toddler, and it's 100 degrees out, and your air conditioners broken, probably really different than what you need when it's really cold. And you have a teenager, right? So if we get in the habit of asking ourselves, quieting ourselves enough to go, Okay, that's a real question, what do I need, and then giving ourselves what we need, we do start to build that, Oh, I do matter. And I would say just as important as I matter what I do matters, because when I change my actions, my life changes. Okay, so when we think about all of these actions, one of the things we haven't talked about yet, is that you are a certified Fair Play coach, which I guess like first, if you give us a like, one minute synopsis of what a fair play is, but then how can we as people with ADHD, use this philosophy or methodology to make our lives better? And I know this is like a big topic. And I'm like, we don't have a ton of time.
Patricia Sung 42:20
I could not wrap up the interview without bringing this up. Because this is something that just is so important to moms as a whole, but also when you have ADHD, so good. Okay.
Tami Hackbarth 42:30
All right. So fair play, a book, written by Yves Brodsky published in 2019, has turned into a method that has cards essentially how I like to talk about fair play. It's a game who doesn't love games. It's a game that helps families redistribute the domestic labor that it takes to run a household, the idea. So there's 100 cards, I call them adulting tasks. And the idea is that you look at the 100 cards, and you're like, Please don't make me do 100 things you go through and you're like, let's get rid of these because they're not relevant to our lives. If you do not have children, you already got rid of 40 cards. Lucky who? Right? So we start with getting rid of the cards. And then the reason I love fair play for neurodivergent families is that thing I was talking about, like the invisible infrastructure of lesson planning. When I was a teacher, I didn't get it because it couldn't see it. I couldn't see the pieces. And fair play is all about you have let's use laundry. For instance, we talked about laundry, if you say to I don't know your neurodivergent 15 year old, go do the laundry, you might get a completely blank stare because they're like, What is laundry I would just happen somewhere like the clothes I wear turn into that thing. What's with all the machines and all the things right? So in fair play, you have three distinct pieces.
Tami Hackbarth 42: 34
So if I was going to sit down with my family and we were going to fair play it up for laundry, we would first talk about a how to clothes turn from clothes to laundry, we would talk about the stories that we had around we want to bring the humanity of laundry I might tell a story. This is a true thing. Schools sometimes install washing machines on site because a lot of people live without laundry facilities and kids are embarrassed to go to school and stinky clothes. So laundry can be really like heartbreaking for some people write my story with laundry is I used to be afraid to take the dirty clothes down to the basement because I was afraid of the basement. Patricia I spent my entire childhood hiding the dirty clothes in the bathtub in the one bathroom in my house. I would collect all the dirty clothes. My job was to take them downstairs and I would hide the clothes in the bathtub when I told my daughter that she almost peed herself. She was like That is the funniest story I've ever heard. And I was like and they now For Saturday thing, I don't know who then took the clothes down. But it was like the magic fairy taking the clothes all the way down. She was like, I can't imagine grandma grandpa not saying anything. I was like, but they didn't. I thought it was weird, right? Then my husband tells his story. And we talk about who did the laundry growing up. My husband's like, I grew up with a single mom, of course, my mom did the laundry. And like, I eventually did the laundry for my family after I got not being so afraid, right. So we've got this, like, why is laundry important to our families, this idea that we're going to live in our values, we're going to teach our kids how to be grown ups is like really fundamental my entire life. I was like, I think I missed the adulting day, who's got the handbook? And I feel like fair play really does that for me, like, oh, turns out, there's 100 things. Let's try to get rid of some of them. Right? So we have the conception, what is laundry? Why is it important with the planning, and that's where we start going, Okay, we need laundry detergent, we need a steam fighter we need whatever you need your supplies, you need to teach everybody in the house how the machine works, you need to say, on what day? Will the laundry be done? Who's going to be the person who takes the clothes and puts them in the washer? Does all the bedrooms? And puts them in the dryer? Is laundry done when it's in the dryer? Or is laundry done when it's folded and put back in drawers? Right? So we talk it through? So we're not constantly looking at everyone in our house going Mom, I don't have any clean clothes. Mom, I'm not ready for my softball game because you didn't wash my uniform. Mom, where am I sucks because we know who's holding the card. Right? Then we have the execution, which is actually we do laundry on Tuesday, we know the laundry is done when Billy has collected everybody's laundry basket from the laundry room and put it on their bed. That's how we know laundry is done in our house. And so it makes invisible, intangible things visible and tangible. And it's that thing where you're like, oh my god, is this just good teaching? The answer is yes. And I know you spend a lot of time in the classroom. And what do we do, we created these scaffolds for our students because they're like, you can talk all you want about the math algorithm, I don't see it. So unless you do a step by step by step by step, I'm lost, right? And we work together. So nobody feel shame about not knowing how to do the thing that they've never done before. And we're not fighting with each other over the laundry.
Tami Hackbarth 42:38
As a family. It's like we're superheroes with our elbows linked and we're against the laundry, we are conquering the laundry instead of the laundry coming between us. So that's fair play. In a nutshell. It's a communication tool, you can gamify it, it makes the unsexy tasks of adulting really visible. The other thing I love about fairplay self care built into it, it is a given for both adults. And I would say the children as well. Another thing that's built in is adult friendship. So you work as a team to make sure your most beloved people get what they need. And they do the same for you. And then there's this whole other unicorn space, which is like, what, it's amazing. It's free time to do the things that make you you, it's for you to hyper fixate on space because you saw that Sally Ride movie that one time and your family is like we got you, we're going to take care of everything at home while you go out and be your most awesome self. And then Tuesday night, when it's my turn, I'll go out and do my awesome thing while you stay home. Because we've had all the talks about what's expected, everybody's claiming ownership to like, we're on the same team. And we've made our values really visible, we've made our processes really visible. And I have found it to be so helpful. And I think it's because I come from a teaching background where I'm like, You know what, it turns out, nobody knows how to do a jumping jack until you teach them it. Nobody knows how to tie their shoe. Nobody knows how to do kind of anything that we as adults, we just take for granted.
Patricia Sung 49:06
Because like to use your jumping jack analogy. I mean, especially having taught young kids I mean, some of them are jumping and like their hands are together but then feet are not like it's like all of a sudden they're on weeping.
Tami Hackbarth 49:17
Like they're waving they like they can't do some some some children cannot put their little hands together over their head unless they're looking at their hands. Yeah, and that's one step don't ask them what they're doing with their feet. So if you've ever you know hung out with a seven year old and you go can you do a jumping jacks 99% of them will do some sort of arm flailing leg flailing thing you will delight in this and you'll go oh wow, somebody at some point taught me how to do this because clearly that's not a factory installed situation with a kid neither is algebra. Neither is yeah your bed or like knowing.
Patricia Sung 49:52
Like if the thing that said I'm gonna do like with you know what done looks like because I think in your analogy of the laundry is done when Billy puts the folded basket on So in so his bed and all the baskets had been delivered is a very different conversation in your family than if you're expecting that all the clothes are already in your drawer or when you don't have the leader. This is what done looks like, which is an issue with ADHD. Everyone's mad because their version of done was not executed or was executed and the other person disagrees.
Tami Hackbarth 50:22
Right. If I asked everybody right now, where do your clothes live? Some people would be like, clearly they're on the floor wardrobe does isn't that where everybody keeps your clothes? A lot of people would answer especially neurotypical people, they would say they're folded in my drawers done at our house, my neurotypical husband, he folds his clothes, and he puts them away. I have baskets inside giant drawers, where I dump things. They're categorized. Every once in a while, I'll get a wild hair like, oh, I want to have Marie Kondo. Like I get weirdly fixated on folding T shirts the right way and filing them. And then eventually I realize, Oh, my God, it's so great. And then I eventually pile things on them. I can't find anything. And I also got a laptop again, right? And recently, my 13 year old said, I need you guys to stop yelling at me about my clothes. I said, Okay, what's the solution? What does your clothes being put away look like? And she said, this giant sack thing. That's where my dirty clothes go? Terrific. I love that your underwear are not going to be on the floor anymore. Where do your clean clothes go? She said they go in this laundry basket. You know what? Fine. She doesn't open a drawer, she there's no baskets. It's one laundry basket. It sits on top of something. There's like a mound. And I thought but now we all know clean clothes for her are here. Dirty clothes for her are here. We're having the conversation. And I love working with families on this. Because how many times have we been told, especially as little kids go in your room and clean it? I don't know about you. But when I was little, I was like, well, a clean room means nobody can see my stuff. So I would take everything, and I would shove it under my bed, I would shove it in my drawers, close them. And I would think I'm done. But he never got around to the teaching part of this is what I mean, this is what they mean. This is what this means, right? And so I just feel like it's such a great tool. And it's also really flexible. Because I'm not saying, hey, Patricia, this is what laundry looks like this is laundry is important to me in this way. And because I have figured it out you at your house have to do the system the way that we do at our house, because that's the right way. Right. And I think that's why we really get in trouble and like downloading another Pinterest chore chart is that we're expecting somebody else to tell us what done is.
Patricia Sung 53:01
And that might actually be what done works for your family.
Patricia Sung 53:03
Yeah,
Tami Hackbarth 53:04
Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone is going to make a Pinterest board of my teenagers clean or dirty clothes situation. But I have to tell you, there's no more clothes shoved under her bed, there's no more clothes, and kind of hanging out all over the house. So we decided as a family, where we are on this thing in this season of our life. And we get along so much better. And also notice I asked her, I asked my child, what is important about this, how would you solve this problem? I don't agree with everything that she comes up with. But I do actually she's got great ideas. She's also idea machine. I'm like, again, going back to earlier in the conversation. I don't care how it's done. Is it done? It just needs to be done.
Patricia Sung 53:51
And like when you have those conversations, you also get to see like, okay, I'm okay with this, this and this, like when we go to say something special event, in that case, wrinkly clothes, and the baskets not going to work for me. So in this fancy clothes, I need these ones in the closet, the rest can be in a giant, Lumpy pile, but you have that conversation. So nobody's surprised when they walk out to fancy event and they look like they just rolled out from under the bed. You're on the same page.
Tami Hackbarth 54:15
Exactly. Exactly. And also, if you yourself are somebody who has ADHD, let's be real, most of our relatives also do too, right? And wouldn't it be nice to save the wrinkly clothes at the wedding shame spiral that we all went through as kids because we were shoving her clothes wherever we can look ahead and be like, well, at some point gonna need that thing to be nice. Yeah, yeah. And again, it's all is this daily practice, daily practice of communication, daily practice of deciding what is important. What's important at this time and always having that idea of this family unit could be fighting with each other. But instead we're working together to solve the problems that are coming our way.
Patricia Sung 55:00
Okay, I know that we could talk for another 17 hours. So let me wrap this up. We're gonna do the lightning round in just a second. But before we do, can you tell the mamas listening where they can find you and how they can work with you?
Tami Hackbarth 55:12
Yes, you can find me on my website at tamihackbarth.com. I do have a group coaching program called deferred maintenance, where we do all things self-care, and we get into unicorn space, we get into fair play. And we also get into family communication. Again, coming from a teaching background. I'm like, let me teach you the ways of the family meeting. So that you can go forth and solve problems as a team instead of fighting with each other. I do spend some time online, the best place to find me is on Instagram. And I also have a podcast where our lovely host here will be a guest on the show. And you can find me 100% guilt free self care, podcast, wherever you get your shows, and my book is available online, you might even be able to find it at your library. And that is called The Essential Guide to 100%. guilt free self care.
Patricia Sung 56:08
Awesome, Tami. Okay, I'm gonna do the lightning round questions. And so for this part, you just fill in the blank, you don't have to explain anything, just answer the question. Alright. So number one, the best thing that I've read or listened to recently is
Tami Hackbarth 56:19
I'm such an avid reader that I'm like, there's so many resistance live it as a YouTube show. Resistance live.
Patricia Sung 56:26
Number two, my most boring about me. Fact is,
Tami Hackbarth 56:30
that's hilarious. Because I'm like, I'm nothing about me as boring. I don't drink alcohol.
Patricia Sung 56:36
Okay, number three, when I'm having a rough day, my go to quote, song, poem, book, podcast activity, whatever it is.
Tami Hackbarth 56:44
reading fiction, either curled up in bed, or in a hot bath.
Patricia Sung 56:49
Number four, don't tell anyone. I used
Tami Hackbarth 56:53
used to be really good at drinking. And I stopped because I was curious what life would be like and what I would be like, if I didn't drink anymore.
Patricia Sung 57:04
Number five. If I had a magic fairy wand for one spell, I would,
Tami Hackbarth 57:09
oh my god, I'm really, really fighting this between doing all this like big political work and having a clean house. I'm gonna take the clean house because then my mind would be free to focus on the world's problems.
Patricia Sung 57:27
Deal. Okay, and the very last one is number six. My best piece of advice for mamas with ADHD is
Tami Hackbarth 57:35
move your body.
Patricia Sung 57:37
Well, thank you. I'm so glad that you're here. And I want to keep talking. But I also need to take my kids to tennis lessons.
Tami Hackbarth 57:43
So yeah, say
Patricia Sung 57:44
thank you for being here.
Tami Hackbarth 57:45
Thank you for having me.
Patricia Sung 57:47
I so appreciate it and appreciate your wisdom with us today.
Tami Hackbarth 57:51
Thank you.
Patricia Sung 57:53
For more resources, classes and community head over to my website motherhoodinadhd.com