Is It Me or ADHD? from 100% Guilt Free Self Care with Tami Hackbarth #233
When you think of doing something for yourself, do you jump in with both feet? Or do you think about aaaaaaaaallllllll the reasons you shouldn’t?
Meet my actual real-life friend, Tami Hackbarth, host of 100% Guilt-Free Self-Care. In this episode, Tami and I chat about an honest look at motherhood through the lens of ADHD.
Tami shares:
I am so excited to introduce you to my guest this week! I met Patricia at Mom2 Summit last year in Scottsdale. We bonded quickly over having both been classroom teachers and now coaches. I was in the midst of my ADHD evaluation so I had so many questions for her.
Patricia Sung helps moms with adult ADHD work with their unique brains and get their ish together one step at a time and feel confident running their family life. She hosts Motherhood in ADHD, a Top 5 Parenting podcast, encouraging mamas with practical strategies and relatable missteps. She’s a hobby-hopping, anxious adventurer willing to try almost anything once. A Midwesterner at heart, she reluctantly adopted the word "y'all" and lives in Houston with her husband and two young sons. You can grab free resources and get your crap together with other ADHD moms in Successful Mama Meetups at www.motherhoodinadhd.com.
100% Guilt-Free Self-Care because we all need it in order to create the world we want to live in. Self-care isn’t selfish and you are not broken. Modern life is built on the unpaid labor of caregivers and women. This show is a mix of interviews, practical tips and a good natured kick in the pants to get you into action. It will help you build more energy and remind you that you matter too. Hosted by author, speaker, coach and Fair Play Facilitator Tami Hackbarth.
Tami loves a good swear word, so pop in your headphones.
Be sure to subscribe to the 100% Guilt-Free Self-Care Podcast!
Tami’s website
Tami’s instagram
Join Tami’s free class Reduce the Mental Load: https://www.tamihackbarth.com/reduce-mental-load
Welcome to the Best of Friends Series, where you are meeting a few of my favorite friends in the podcast community. I’m sharing interviews that I have done on other friends’ podcasts. Not only do you get a new episode, I hope that you’ll find a few shows to add to your podcast queue. There’s a wide variety of topics coming your way, so keep an eye out for a new friend every other week of the summer.
Ready for a get away?
Super stressed and need a break? We’re learning more about your stress response and how it relates to treating your ADHD symptoms at our annual ADHD Moms Luxury Weekend Retreat, October 11-13, 2024 in Houston, Texas!
“Honestly, this was one the best weekends I've had since becoming a mom. I've never felt so seen and understood. I would hop on a plane and go again. No hesitation! I'll follow y’all anywhere, moms.” –ADHD Mama J.Q.
I’ll take care of all the details - you simply show up and enjoy. I take care of you while you learn how to take even better care of yourself, in a way that’s sustainable for real momlife.
Because you can take care of your family when you’re in a healthy place. Sign up here: patriciasung.com/retreat
Watch this 2 min video of our last ADHD moms retreat!
Links Mentioned in this episode
Tami’s website
Tami’s instagram
Patricia Sung [00:00:02]:
Are you overwhelmed by motherhood and barely keeping your head above water? Are you confused and frustrated by how all the other moms make it look so easy? You can't figure out how to manage the chaos in your mind, your home, or your family. I get you, mama. Parenting with ADHD is hard. Here is your permission slip to let go of the Pinterest worthy visions of organization and structure fit for everyone else. Let's do life like our brains do life, creatively, lovingly, and with all our might. When we embrace who we are and how our brains work, we can figure out how to live our lives successfully, and in turn, lead our families well. At the end of the day, we just want to be good moms. But, spoiler alert, you are already a great mom.
Patricia Sung [00:00:52]:
ADHD does not mean you're doomed to be a hot mess, mama. You can rewrite your story from shame spiral to success story. And I'll be right here beside you to cheer you on. Welcome to motherhood in ADHD. Hey there, successful mama. It's your friend, Patricia Sun. While I am on break for the next few weeks, I am bringing you some friends. This is my best of friends episode, and these are all interviews that I've done for other people's podcasts.
Patricia Sung [00:01:19]:
First of all, thank you to these hosts for sharing their episode with us. And I want you to go in the show notes and see where do you find them? Go listen to their other episodes. Put their show in your queue, in your download list so that you have an extra friend to hang out with when you're cleaning or on a walk or riding in the car. Every time I am interviewed, I find myself often sharing very similar things, but there's always some nuances and new things that, oh my, wow, I have never shared that before. I've never talked about this in this way. And I can't wait for you to get a new flare and perspective and, a new podcast friend to join you today. So listen in to this episode on a friend's podcast. Go check them out and enjoy this best of friends episode.
Patricia Sung [00:02:05]:
Meet Tammy Hackbarth of the 100% guilt free self care podcast.
Tami Hackbarth [00:02:14]:
100% guilt free self care with Tammy Hackbarth. The podcast here to remind you that you matter too. I am so, so happy to have you here. I feel like we could talk forever because we have so much in common. We only see each other once a year. I was recently on your show, and we had so much to talk about. So my friend, Patricia, please tell my listeners who you are and what you do in the world.
Patricia Sung [00:02:41]:
I am Patricia Sung, and I am an ADHD coach for moms who have ADHD themselves. So I focus specifically on moms. So, yes, I do talk about parenting because by nature, it's part of our jobs. But really where I focus in on is you as a parent, as a mother, as a human, what do you need in order to live well, especially with ADHD in the mix? How do you love your life and still get things done and not feel like a hot mess train wreck of a human every day and be able to do all the cool dreams that you wanted to do and feel like you're showing up as a cool mom and getting things done and raising humans to be great people eventually. And I do that through courses, community coaching. I have in person retreats. So I do all the things so that you can feel special. That's what I do.
Tami Hackbarth [00:03:33]:
I love that because our work holds all of our hands. We are linked arms. We do so much of the same work. How did you come to decide I gotta really target the moms that have ADHD? What was that pivotal moment where you're like, these are my people other than being a mom with ADHD. Like, we both are. What why did you decide to make this your your area of specialty?
Patricia Sung [00:04:02]:
So it started when I had my first. So my oldest is 9, and I was up at 3 AM googling, how do you be a good mom with ADHD? I think he was probably, like, 2 or 3 weeks old, and I was like, oh my gosh. This is not what I expected. This is a hot mess. Send in the cavalry cavalry. Like, it this is hard, and I don't wanna do it anymore. I I legitimately, my son was about 2 weeks old, and I turned to my husband. Dead serious.
Patricia Sung [00:04:26]:
I was not joking. I was like, can we send him back? Can we send him back? I would I just want my old life back, please. Can we can we start over? Can we redo? And, of course, he staring at me like, oh, you're kidding. And I was like, nope. Not kidding. And he was like, this is not good. And so, like, yeah, thankfully, we did. I did start seeing a therapist and the doctors on the medicine that we, you know, we pulled on out of that postpartum anxiety, but it was really, really hard.
Patricia Sung [00:04:51]:
And if I look back at my life, like, you can see the ADHD all along the way. I didn't get diagnosed until college when I went from being, like, you know, National Honor Society. I was in college on an academic scholarship, fell apart, almost filled out, almost got kicked out. It was a hot mess. And that's when I got diagnosed. Thankfully, I had a a doctor who recognized it back in the year 2000, so you know how old I am now. Like, I really thought though, like, back then, it was just like, this is this affects your schoolwork, and take this riddle in when you have to study, and you'll be okay. And that that's not true.
Patricia Sung [00:05:26]:
Yes. The medicine did help. No. No. It did not only affect schoolwork. And so I figured out how to make things work. I duct taped some things, spitballed it, made it work until even through, like, when I was teaching. I used to teach middle school.
Patricia Sung [00:05:39]:
I figured out how to make it all work. I loved the structure of middle school because it me exactly what to do, where to be, when to do it. Lovely. But I get to motherhood, and all of a sudden, all of that structure that I had placed in my life just went out the window. Because all of a sudden, it's on your you're on the schedule of this tiny thing that has no sense of time, even worse than me, I suppose. And it was just falling apart. And I realized, like, wow, this isn't the this this is not good. I need help.
Patricia Sung [00:06:08]:
And here I am googling and can't find anything. Literally, it was, like, 1 article on scary mommy. And I think in total, I found 3 articles talking about being a mom with ADHD, and they were mostly just complaining and venting about how it was hard. And I couldn't find any resources to do something about it. Now I can look back now, like, I've met some fabulous ladies who have been working in this field a long time. Clearly, the Google was not in their favor that day, nor mine, but there just wasn't the resources there that we needed. And so you fast forward, my youngest was about a year old, and I am a Christian. And very clearly, god was like, this is what I want you to do.
Patricia Sung [00:06:42]:
I want you to make a podcast for moms with ADHD. And I was like, absolutely not. I'm out, god. This is not for me. No. Thank you. Mm-mm. No.
Patricia Sung [00:06:51]:
This sounds terrible. You want me to go put all my problems on the Internet for everyone to hear. I don't even listen to podcasts. What are we doing here? And III ignored it for several months. And then over time, you know, thankfully, that God stuck with me and was like, no. Really? This is what I want you to do. I was like, okay. So I got I went to YouTube University, figured out how do I make a podcast, and started it.
Patricia Sung [00:07:15]:
And then that was 5 years ago. And pulling that all together, like, I can see where it all makes sense now. At the time, did not make any sense whatsoever. But I can look back now and see how little Patricia struggled and how my experience through working through my own diagnosis and then working with so many students who have ADHD. As a teacher, I'm an entrepreneur. I have more than 1 company, and I started my first business when I was 12. I can see that how that experience has come together. And all of a sudden, it's like all these pieces of me have come together to hear, where, like, I honestly thought after I had my kids, I'd just go back to teaching and probably go get a degree, like, an advanced degree and go into administration.
Patricia Sung [00:07:59]:
And I I won't get on my soapbox today, but, you know, there's something to be said about a lot of teachers who become administrators and don't really those skills are not very transferable. Being a really great teacher does not make you a really great administrator. And a lot of people who are not very good at teaching then become administrators, also still not good. And that's where I really thought I was gonna make my difference, is staying in the education world. And lo and behold, here, I am still in education. I'm constantly educating families. But I know now that all that stuff that I saw as a teacher, I can actually affect change here with mom. And, you know, I think it might it may have been you who said, like, we're not doing generational like, we're not breaking generational cycles.
Patricia Sung [00:08:40]:
We're rebuilding them.
Tami Hackbarth [00:08:42]:
Yeah. We're not we're not only cycle breakers, but we're cycle starters.
Patricia Sung [00:08:47]:
Right. And that's what I get to do with my work now is help families change the course of what's happening in their lives. Because right now, mom is crying in the bathroom, scrolling her phone, ignoring all the problems, or literally, like, yelling her face off at everyone because nobody understands and she's overwhelmed and can't handle any more things. Do not ask me for 1 more snack. I will cut you. Like, this level of anger and and, like, just sheer overwhelm. Like, brain has shut off. We're in high stress mode.
Patricia Sung [00:09:18]:
Nothing useful is coming out of this mouth. I really just need to go hide, but I can't because I got kids here and I gotta still keep them alive. But also, what damage am I causing? Would they be better off not I mean, it's just like all that awfulness starts swirling around your head, and you think that you're stuck this way. And I want moms to know you are not stuck this way. Yes. Being a parent is hard. Being a you know, having ADHD is hard, and there's still something we can do about it. We don't have to stay in that place Of the yuck and the overwhelm and the trauma and the drama and all that, there is hope to do life in a different way.
Patricia Sung [00:09:52]:
And I I hope that I can be that lighthouse for other moms to see that there is an option out there, and we can shift the way that our family runs every day. And we don't have to be perfect about it, but we can really make some big differences.
Tami Hackbarth [00:10:05]:
Oh my god. You guys see why me and Patricia totally headed off? Like, we sat down next to each other at a conference and I was like, love her. Because I kept saying, oh yeah, me too. And at the time that we met, I hadn't been diagnosed with ADHD yet, even though it was in my fifties and like you, I had pieced together what worked. And when things stopped working, I was like, you know what? Let's hyper focus on fixing this particular thing. And I I really
Patricia Sung [00:10:32]:
How many self help books did you read
Tami Hackbarth [00:10:33]:
in it? I have literally hundreds of books right here and I've read them all, so you don't have to. And I pulled out the relevant pieces and I put them all together. And I'm like, if you took, I'm going to Frankenstein your exercises that you get, because I'm like, oh, that's ailing you. Let me pull 3 exercises from 3 different books. And this is the background of this and the background of that. And people are like, how do you do that? I'm like a lifetime of trying to figure out how I, as a neurodivergent person, can live in a world that was not made for me. Having this conversation with my ADHD daughter this morning, I I was like, honey, there's nothing wrong with you, but you were born into a world that was not made for you. So what what steps do we have to take so that we can move through this life in the least painful way possible? Yeah.
Tami Hackbarth [00:11:27]:
And hopefully change the world so that it is made for everyone and it supports everyone. Yeah. And, oh my God. So if you're sitting here and you're like, I don't have ADHD. Why am I listening to you? Well, here's the thing. When I had students that had ADHD, we always had to have the talk of it's not I it's not a it's not an excuse. It's not a, like, oh, well, you can't do that. It was a it was the beginning of a conversation, not the end of a conversation, and the conversation went like this.
Tami Hackbarth [00:12:02]:
Okay. So if this way that we have set it up doesn't work for you, what do we need to modify or accommodate to make this work for you? Right? And like that framework can be applied across the board, regardless of how your brain works. It's like, how does it make it happen? So you have group coaching programs. Are all the people that you work with, are they like officially diagnosed? Are there, do you have some ADHD curious people and, or do you also have moms who don't have ADHD themselves, but are parenting ADHD kids? Because that is fancy parenting. That's like graduate level parenting. I mean, I can't imagine parenting an, a neurodivergent kid without also being neurodivergent. Cause I'm like, that shit's hard, but I get her at a fundamental level. Yeah.
Tami Hackbarth [00:13:02]:
You know? So tell us more about your community and what people will find when they when they go check out your work.
Patricia Sung [00:13:09]:
So my stance is that if what I'm doing helps you, come on. Like, there are, I would say, it's probably, like, half and half of moms who have been diagnosed and moms who suspect. If like, I always say, like, you know, what's that saying? If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck. Like, if you're sitting here going, like, man, Patricia and Tammy, like, they're my jam. I'm just gonna let you know right now, there's a good chance you should just go and hold over my website and get that checklist of symptoms and feel like that. Like, we flock together. And it's not to say that you won't have any friends who are neurotypical. But if you are, like, really resonating with so many people who have ADHD, like, that that in itself is, like, diagnosis flag of, like, hey.
Patricia Sung [00:13:52]:
Maybe this is something that you could look into. And as well as when your kids have ADHD, they there's, like, a 75% chance that they got it from their parents.
Tami Hackbarth [00:14:01]:
Someone. They got it
Patricia Sung [00:14:02]:
from it. I'm not. Somewhere. And if you're not, then I look up at those grandparents, those aunts and uncles, like, it's in the blood. Not really. It's not actually in the blood. But, like, it is tied to your hereditaryness, if you will. So Yes.
Patricia Sung [00:14:16]:
It came from somewhere. Yes. I always, like, find myself being like, oh, I shouldn't have said that. I always say, like, well, you can't just get ADHD. Well, technically, you could. Like, you can have a head injury and then have ADHD. But, like, the amount of people who have ADHD via head injury is slim. Most of us got it from our family tree somewhere along the way.
Tami Hackbarth [00:14:33]:
And Yeah. Absolutely. And the first time I heard that came out of a doctor's mouth as I'm sitting in an ADHD parenting class, and nary a person in that room was sitting still. And it's like 8 o'clock at night and the teacher, the doctor's like cracking open, Coke classic and guzzling it down. And she's like, guess what? Me too. And we're like, wow. Really shocking. Yeah.
Tami Hackbarth [00:14:58]:
It is She's like, I'm brought I brought up the wiggle seats for all of you.
Patricia Sung [00:15:02]:
Yeah. Basically. So, yeah, most of the moms in my community either have it or suspect it. And it is not like I don't I don't check for your diagnosis paperwork to be a part. Not not at all. Like, I I want that if I have things that are going to help you, please come and and use them. Make your life easier. But what you'll find when you get there is I'm very balanced between both the logical things like strategies and tools and, you know, how do we actually make this happen? Like, tell me what to do, or don't tell me what to do, but tell me what to do.
Patricia Sung [00:15:35]:
Don't tell me what to do. Don't tell me what to do. Like, I I navigate that space in between very well.
Tami Hackbarth [00:15:40]:
They give me a framework that I can improve upon for myself.
Patricia Sung [00:15:43]:
Yes. Like, that's That's actually what I want. I want you to take everything that I hand you, and you say, good, good, garbage, throw it out. Okay. Keep that. And I want you to take all these pieces and then make them work for you. I don't expect anyone to show up and do it exactly like I did. And quite honestly, if you do, it's probably not gonna work.
Patricia Sung [00:16:00]:
Like, it's just that's the reason why we go to Pinterest and download the chore chart, and then it doesn't work. And we're like, why can't no 1 of my family file the chore chart because it was built for somebody else? And we want it we want that easy answer, but that's not how life works, and it's not how ADHD works, unfortunately. I really wish I could just hand you this Pinterest chartered and you'll be on your way. But I want you to have that all those pieces, like, the structure and like, these are the things that I've seen work for people. But but, honestly, like, if I give you 10 ideas, I don't need you to have 10 good ideas. I only need 1 of them to work for you. Like, I want you to find the 1 that made sense, or maybe you take this 1 and that 1 and kinda cobble it together and, you know, have 1 of those, like, you know, little hybrid babies. Like, come up with what works for you because I'm not the 1 who still live with this every day.
Patricia Sung [00:16:44]:
So take the pieces, make it work for you. So that's 1 half is the, like, tangible what are we gonna do about this? The other half is the the the intangible things. Like, we do a lot of work with emotional regulation and understanding, like, why is it that I lose my wait. Am I allowed to swear on here? Is that a
Tami Hackbarth [00:17:03]:
Of course, you are. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. That way I just marked every episode.
Patricia Sung [00:17:07]:
Okay. I just wanna make sure no one's gonna be upset. Oh, I should've had my headphones in. Okay. No. No. Like, if I don't want you to get to the end of the day and you're like, wow. Like, I literally lose my shit on my kids every day at 7 PM.
Patricia Sung [00:17:21]:
What's going on? Like, that piece of the emotional regulation and the energy regulation of being able to have the stamina to do all the things that we are required as parents to do. Like, it's a lot. And I want you to know that there are also ways that we can rearrange things and do things to make that work, but I want you to understand that piece too. Is that when you are, you know, disassociating or spending half the day scrolling your phone or yelling at everybody, especially, like, when it gets close to your cycle. Like, when these things are affecting your day to day a lot and frequently, then we wanna do something about it. And I think that's a lot of times where people don't get diagnosed with ADHD because they're like, well, everybody gets mad at their kids sometimes. Everybody yells at their kids sometimes. Everybody gets frustrated at homework sometimes.
Patricia Sung [00:18:11]:
And when your sometimes is actually most of the time or many times a day, then that struggle is on a different level. And it's the same thing with, like, oh, well, everybody loses their keys. Everybody, you know, forgets to return the, you know, the permission slip at school sometimes. It's like, yeah. But you forgot 1 permission slip all year, and I forgot 7 of them. That's a different struggle. So I want moms also to then understand the ADHD and see all the ways that it's affecting you because I describe ADHD like a filter. It's a filter on the picture.
Patricia Sung [00:18:44]:
It's not changing who you are. Like, you having ADHD doesn't mean that you now have different colored eyes. You're still the person who loves art or, you know, loves, you know, team sports or board games or singing in the shower. Like, those are all things that are still you, but your ADHD put a puts a filter on it. So it is modifying the way that it looks or the way that it seems to show up. But it's not fundamentally changing who you are. You're still you. But that ADHD sure is gonna affect every little snippet, every corner, every nugget of your life because it is not just a like, you know, when I was a kid, they just thought it was,
Tami Hackbarth [00:19:26]:
oh, and this is a school
Patricia Sung [00:19:27]:
problem. For more resources, classes, and community, head over to my website. So when motherhoodhaveadhd.com. ADHD, especially you come from a family of people who have been undiagnosed and have unmanaged ADHD. There's a lot of unhealthy patterns there. There's a whole lot of traumas and dramas, and we don't have to stay like that. So I want you to understand what how does it work? What does it mean when you're stressed out? How does that affect your life? Okay. Well, what are we gonna do about that? Because a lot of the advice that's out there like you said, it's like there's just so much other like, it didn't work for you.
Patricia Sung [00:20:00]:
And I think that's a lot of times where moms will get diagnosed because they're like, but I've tried all the things. I have downloaded all the Pinterest chore charts, and I read all the books. And I did all the things that the school told me to do, and it's still not working because we're not looking at it with like, through the lens of ADHD and fitting it to what you need. And that emotional piece is really hard when you're the 1 yelling at your kids every night, 4 days in a row, and then you feel like an awful mom, but you don't wanna tell anyone about it. Because what if they take my kids? CBS will come. It's just a whole thing. And, you know, I say it lightly, but it's not. It's really serious.
Patricia Sung [00:20:34]:
And there are moms struggling everywhere with this shame and guilt that comes with trying to hold it all together, trying to mask, trying to, you know, duct tape and spitball it together so that you can give your kids a good life, and yet you're the 1 falling apart trying to keep it all together. Like, we don't have to live like that. We don't have to hate what we're doing and feel like we never succeed at anything, and we can how come I can never get this habit in place? Or how come I can do the habit for 2 months and then something changes, and I it's like I never even had a habit in the first place. Like, when you understand why your brain does things the way it does, then you start to find the solutions that fit you. Because we look I love looking at the patterns. You're like, okay. Well, if you're struggling here, where like, how is that familiar? What else do you see it? Can we find any patterns? It's like, even just, like, the other day, 1 of my clients is like, well, I really need to, like my doctor said, look. I I really need to start moving more.
Patricia Sung [00:21:29]:
But she's, like, not excited about it, obviously. I mean, most of us aren't when we hear that news. And she's like, I don't know. Like, I I can't figure out how to make this work. And, like, by the time we worked through the question, we were at, like 1 of the problems is, like, she didn't have socks clean to go on the walk. And, like, you know, she kept her shoes by the door and was like, well, why can't I just go do the walk? And it's like, we literally got to, like, making sure she had a clean pair of socks. That was, like, her thing. She was like I was like, if you have dirty socks from, like, the day before, like, and they're sitting there with your shoes, like, is that a is that a deal breaker? She's like, no.
Patricia Sung [00:22:05]:
I think I could wear the socks twice, but I don't wanna wear the dirty socks from, like, previous things. Like, if they're, like, designated walk socks, it's okay. But, like, if they were Yucky socks from before, I don't wanna do it. It's like, okay. Well, most people when they think about, like, you eat this, like, exercise habit or movement habit, they're not looking at, oh, we need socks. Socks is gonna be the domino that solves this problem. Socks are the domino. Socks are the domino.
Patricia Sung [00:22:30]:
So you have to, like I wanna figure out, like, what's the pattern and obstacle here to get to, like, we solved the sock problem, and now she's walking everyday at lunch. Like,
Tami Hackbarth [00:22:39]:
what? Girl, I okay. Neurotypical people are like, what the fuck? But I'm gonna tell you what. Mhmm. I I joined a gym years ago specifically to do weight training. And I was like, why am I not doing it? Why am I not doing it? Why am I not doing it? Do you know what the answer I finally came up with is for the first time, it was a gym that their weight room had a wall of mirrors. And I hated how my body looked in a sports bra. And so I was like, was that the first thing that came out of my brain? No, it was like the hundredth thing that came out of my brain. Cause I was like, well, it's not this it's, it's like every single aspect of your life becomes a puzzle that has to be.
Tami Hackbarth [00:23:25]:
Either put together or taken apart, depending on where you're coming at the problem. And it's 9 times out of 10, you're like, what's your problem with weight training? You're like, I hate how my boobs look in a sports bra. What does that have to do with weight training? And in that moment, I was like, well, it is keeping me from doing it. So while it may seem like a stupid problem and a stupid solution, when I got different sports bras, then I could do the activity.
Patricia Sung [00:23:51]:
Mhmm.
Tami Hackbarth [00:23:52]:
So I deeply get the sock thing, and people are like, why doesn't she just walk in the other room to get socks? Well, because then she got distracted by the shelf that wasn't organized in that room. And so she went to organize that, and then she left the room to put something away that was on the shelf and she went into the kitchen to return that item. And then she was like, oh my God, I have to load the dishwasher or, oh shit. I left the tap on.
Patricia Sung [00:24:21]:
Mhmm. And then
Tami Hackbarth [00:24:22]:
you guys, it is a very give a mouse a cookie. Right? Give a mouse a cookie. Oh, and that mouse smoked a bunch of weed and is like laying around and you're like, what fucking flavor cookie do you want? And where do I get these? Do I have to go to the bakery? Am I making them myself? That's what's happening inside my ADHD brain, and I didn't realize it until I started taking medication. I was like, holy shit. I can now walk from a to b to c to d in the the point of my medication, that part of the day Mhmm. Sequentially because I used to go from a to w backwards around the corner to f and then get lost. And then I was tired. What what letter was I on?
Patricia Sung [00:25:06]:
What letter was I on? I think it was a b, maybe it was c. Oh, well, I don't know. Maybe they just started the beginning. I could figure it out.
Tami Hackbarth [00:25:13]:
Right. And why am I so terrible that I can't just do this thing that's so easy for everyone else. Y'all it's exhausting. So if you are like, shit, this might be me. Go pe Patricia work and they find, what is your, your freebie as a checklist of ADHD symptoms? Tell us more about that, please.
Patricia Sung [00:25:33]:
So I've I always promise that I'm not a doctor, so go talk to your doctor. But Mhmm. This checklist that I made is I took it was actually a podcast episode that I originally did. I, like, transcribed well, I say me. I didn't do it. I have a team that helps me, and this is 1 of the best ADHD hacks is to have people help you. Like, we transcribed it with, you know, in AI, pulled up the key points. My assistant made it into a lovely checklist.
Patricia Sung [00:25:56]:
Like, I wanted people to know that, like, when you look at the DSM, which is the the book that explains all the symptoms for mental health concerns and issues and diseases and what have you, It tells you, like, here's the checklist for ADHD. You have to you need 5 of these 9 things to say that you have ADHD. But in this case, you need 6 of them. And then over here, you it's like the it's the the map that says you have ADHD or you don't have ADHD. And this is supposed to then create an equal level of care amongst all doctors and, you know, therapists and social workers that can diagnose this. But the problem is when you're looking at a 6 year old kid and you're like, are they hyperactive? And you see them jumping off the desk, you're like, check. Yes. But when it's a grown up who's learned how to deal with that hyperactivity and instead it comes out as, like, their leg is constantly bobbing in meetings or they're they pick their cuticles to the point where they're bleeding or they're biting their nails or they're twiddling their thumb.
Patricia Sung [00:26:57]:
The moms that are the mom rock, the cons like, you're rocking a baby. Like, though that constant movement is not what's on the checklist. It does.
Tami Hackbarth [00:27:07]:
I used to say to people we've been a staff meeting and I'd be either I'd be in the back moving from foot to foot, and they're like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm listening. Because if I was just sitting in my chair listening, the only thing I could hear in my head was look forward. You're listening. Don't move around. You look like you're listening. You look, I totally looked like I was listening, but I couldn't hear a single thing anyone was saying. But if I could sit up and move around, suddenly my ears worked again.
Patricia Sung [00:27:36]:
Mhmm. But that's not those examples on the checklist. The checklist is a medical checklist, and so it's very cut and dry.
Tami Hackbarth [00:27:43]:
And what I want children.
Patricia Sung [00:27:45]:
Yeah. And more aimed at children because they to be diagnosed with ADHD, those symptoms do need to be there for multiple years. Obviously, they're looking at a kid. They wanna be able to say, like, yes. This has been this isn't, like, a last 2 months problem. This is a persistent, you know, over time issue. So when we look back at your childhood, a lot of times people will be like, well, I didn't have all that stuff as a kid. I'm like, well, but it looks very different in people who are inattentive versus hyperactive or combined type.
Patricia Sung [00:28:11]:
It looks very different in someone who has learned the coping skills over the last 3 or 4 decades of their life to know how to deal with these things. And, you know, you'll people always be like, well, how you know, they they're a lawyer. They can't be they can't have ADHD, or you have you have held a job down. You can't have ADHD. He's like, no. Nowhere in the diagnostic list does it say that you're a total fuck up. That's not on the list. Now does it happen a lot? I would say you're not a fuck up.
Patricia Sung [00:28:35]:
Like, thing I'd I was like, should I get on the soapbox? Am I gonna get on the soapbox?
Tami Hackbarth [00:28:38]:
No. Well, I'll just say how how I talk about this is that that that question that that came out of that Oprah and doctor Perry book, which is what's wrong with you versus what happened to
Patricia Sung [00:28:50]:
you. Mhmm.
Tami Hackbarth [00:28:52]:
Right. It's like, there's nothing wrong with me. What happened to me is that the world I would grew up in a world that wasn't meant for me. And I was shamed into a behavior that made me shut down part of who I was and paralyzed me in shame. That's what I did.
Patricia Sung [00:29:07]:
Yes.
Tami Hackbarth [00:29:08]:
And being paralyzed in shame is, is not something that makes you act out use for, for some and other people are like, that turns them in the big rebel. Right. And what happens when you're a big rebel, everybody lowers their expectations of you. And so if you happen to pick up a self soothing substance abuse issue along the way, well, that's just expected because you've always been a fuck up. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway
Patricia Sung [00:29:37]:
yeah. So anyway,
Tami Hackbarth [00:29:37]:
Trisha, where can people find this checklist? Because I think it's really important because here's the thing. I didn't my it was 6 6 years after my after I'd gone through the diagnosis with my child who presented in a very classic way, like straight out of the shoot, I was like, hello. We have a person who is a life enthusiast that I've seen before as an early childhood educator. We know we got fancy brains over here, but it wasn't until 6 years after her diagnosis, which coincided with the pandemic, a huge loss. Like my best friend died during the pandemic, Just the pandemic and perimenopause. Yeah. I think it's y'all. That was the straw that broke the camel's back where I was like, okay, apparently I, my skills are regressing and what is happening.
Tami Hackbarth [00:30:35]:
Right. And and then I started going, wait wait a second. Wait. Because my daughter would talk to me and I'd go, oh, me too. She would tell me things about her life at school. I'd go, oh, yeah. I did that when I was a kid. Oh, yeah.
Tami Hackbarth [00:30:49]:
I did. And I it was like
Patricia Sung [00:30:51]:
The light bulb.
Tami Hackbarth [00:30:52]:
The light bulb was like, wait a second. Right? But I think your checklist is a great starting point to bring to your healthcare provider, because here's the thing. Most healthcare providers, weirdly enough have no idea about this because they too grew up thinking it was 6 year old boys who could had ants in their pants and couldn't sit still in the carpet. And also it could be your own medical provider that doesn't have the education, but my evaluator, my ADHD evaluator gave me grief about my stuff. And I was like Cool. I'm what? Everybody else in the process was great. And then when I finally got beyond the evaluator, he's like, well, I guess. And when I talked to the psychiatrist at the end, he was so kind.
Tami Hackbarth [00:31:46]:
So kind. And he said, wow, you've really learned a lot of coping skills over the course of your life. He's like, I see that you wrote a book about self care because I have a big blow up in my office. I was like, I did. He's like, I can't wait to see what happens when you get medication because you've been working so hard your whole life. I was like, sir, same. Same.
Patricia Sung [00:32:12]:
Yeah. Mhmm.
Tami Hackbarth [00:32:13]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Patricia Sung [00:32:14]:
And that's just I want you to be able to fill up this checklist and see, like, this is how it actually shows up as a grown up, as someone with more inattentive side. What does that actually mean when we say that you're hyperactive or you're inattentive,
Tami Hackbarth [00:32:24]:
that
Patricia Sung [00:32:25]:
you're having trouble keeping track of things, that you're disorganized? Like, what does that actually mean as a grown up? And I gave some examples of, like, real life. This is what that means. Like, especially because the symptoms of ADHD are very transdiagnostic, which means they can fit lots of different things. So people who are anxious can also look like people who are ADHD, who can also look like people who have severe trauma. The symptoms fall in they they are on lots of lists.
Tami Hackbarth [00:32:49]:
The the Venn diagram is almost a circle for a lot of things.
Patricia Sung [00:32:52]:
Yeah. And so when you can then take this checklist and say, hey, doctor so and so, this is where I see the concerns. Like, this is what I'm worried about. Here's how it's affecting my life, and here's the examples of how I can tell you that I'm impulsive. Because the doctor's gonna be like, are you impulsive? You'd be like, no. I'm a 40 year old woman who knows how to, like, make good choices now because I've learned how to do that.
Tami Hackbarth [00:33:14]:
You're like, but do you wanna talk about the time I got really drunk in Mexico and did XYZ? And they're like, yes.
Patricia Sung [00:33:19]:
Or can I tell you how many things I purchased on, you know, Amazon 1 click? Like,
Tami Hackbarth [00:33:24]:
you need
Patricia Sung [00:33:25]:
to deactivate that, ma'am. Deactivate. Anyways, like, those ways are the things that I want this to be on this checklist where you say, like, now I have the confidence and the information to show up and be like, I'm concerned about this. Can you please help me make sense of this? And when you get to the practitioner who's like, there's no way. And and you're like, this person's not listening to me. Like, I actually had a really good interview with doctor David Goodman the other day, and he was saying, like because I always say, like, if you don't leave the that practitioner's office feeling like you were heard, you need to find somebody else. And he was like, well, you know, think about too like, it's not just that you felt heard, but, like, did they actually ask the questions to get the information? Because some people don't have the best bedside manner. But did they really ask the questions to find out, or did they just assume and not dig in? Because then they're not doing their job.
Patricia Sung [00:34:16]:
So it's not just that you're you feel great when you left. Like, did the person really ask the right questions to figure out is that the answer? When you come in armed with this checklist and you're like, because I see it here, here and here, then you, you know, the anxiety won't creep in of, like no. Like, well, tell me about that. And you're like and then you just panic and, like, all information flows out of your brain, I want you to go in being like, I already have my paper here. Also, before you go, take a picture of that paper because you're you're gonna forget that paper at home, which is also another exhibit of how you have ADHD. Take a picture of ADHD.
Tami Hackbarth [00:34:52]:
You're also likely to miss 1 of those appointments because you planned your entire day around it. And then in that moment, had your phone on do not disturb, and then they did not get a hold of you. And then when you got to re schedule it, they say, of course you did because I do this. I reschedule this appointment all day long because the people who are calling here think they have ADHD is likely most of them do. And I'm like, I'm so glad you're so understanding. I feel terrible about missing this meeting. And she's like, everyone on that side of the phone feels terrible. And on this side of the phone, we're like, welcome to the club.
Tami Hackbarth [00:35:27]:
We know your friends. They're on this side.
Patricia Sung [00:35:30]:
Yeah. And, like, I mean, I well, like, for all of my client appointments, like, I send a bazillion reminders. I will text you. I will email you. If you're not there 5 minutes later, I don't wait for you to be 15 minutes late to check on you. 5 minutes, I'm like, hey. You come in. We have a meeting.
Patricia Sung [00:35:44]:
Because I know you're probably like, oh, We have a meeting. Like, I I get it. And so, like, just show up in 10 like, you show up 10 minutes afterwards, and we're gonna make this happen. That's okay. But I want you to show up knowing that, like, it's okay. Trust me. A lot of the people are showing up behind or forgot. And, like like, can you just not show up ever? And I'm, like, what? No.
Patricia Sung [00:36:08]:
There's still consequences. But I'm gonna do my best to make it work for you to actually get here and show up. Because if you you come join my community and then you never actually went to any of the meetings, that nobody benefits here. I don't wanna be a gym membership where you showed up and, like, paid the dues and then felt horrible about yourself and didn't ever go again. Like, I want you to be here, so sign up for the text message. Here's the email. Like, get a buddy in the community and, like, text each other if you need to. Like, what do we what's gonna work for you? Because I want you to know, like, you feel I want you to feel at home here, and that it's okay to say, oh my gosh.
Patricia Sung [00:36:44]:
I've forgotten to come to the meeting 3 times in a row. Does anybody have any ideas? And there's the person who's like, well, I set an alarm on Alexa, and she does this crazy dance song so that I know it's not just like another timer. And instead, it's playing Gasolino dance music. And so then I know that's the meeting, and I show up. And I can dance my way to my computer. I know that when this song shows up and like, you can't see me because it's a podcast, like, we're gonna shimmy our way over to the computer and turn on Zoom. And so it's like these kind of things where, like, I'm sure you've set 400 alarms, and you know what? You probably snooze them all and then ignore them all. So what's the actual solution going to be? Oh, look.
Patricia Sung [00:37:19]:
These people in this community, they know because they've been there, done that, and already have 16 alarms set on their phone that they ignored. So go get the checklist. And then I know more of the story. You go to my website, motherhoodandadhd.com. Go download the checklist, and I have a, like, a full I call it the toolkit of, like it's all the resources that I've made over the years because I have ADHD, and I've made a lot of free things on there. So you go sign up for it, and in there is everything from, like, this symptoms checklist to, like, ways to calm down when you're losing your crap on your kids to, like, hey. How do you actually, like, you know, make a packing list when you have ADHD? Like, there's just a bazillion resources in there. But I won't
Tami Hackbarth [00:37:53]:
I'm gonna head over there and download
Patricia Sung [00:37:55]:
all of them.
Tami Hackbarth [00:37:55]:
And I'm laughing because I recently did a poll in my community and everyone is either neurodivergent themselves, married to somebody neurodivergent is parenting somebody neurodivergent. These are ors or ands Yeah. And teaches people who are neurodivergent. I was like, we're in the club altogether, friends. Mhmm. And maybe that's it. And so when I was and another thing about this idea of you're like, oh, well, I'm not neurodivergent that, you know, I don't have ADHD.
Patricia Sung [00:38:30]:
I don't have this.
Tami Hackbarth [00:38:31]:
I don't have that. If we were to say the thing that helps neurodivergent folks, if we so when I was in a classroom, I tailored my teaching to the neurodivergent folks, and everyone in the community benefited. Yep. It's called good teaching. I'm gonna make shit that seems so obvious to neurotypical actually be totally visible so that my divergent people might see it. They're like, what? Oh, 0, that's what you guys have been talking about this whole time? So, girl, we are on the same path, I'm very happy to be there with you. Tell me, so you're coaching, you're podcasting, you're a community leader, you're running retreats, you've got 3 kids. Right? 2.
Tami Hackbarth [00:39:24]:
2 kids. How does your own self care affect your ability to show up in all these different ways?
Patricia Sung [00:39:33]:
Oh, I mean, it shows up in everything. And this has been, I think, 1 of my hardest lessons to learn. I'm a recovering perfectionist. I thought that I could just burn the candle at both ends. Like, that was my solution before I was diagnosed. And even at the beginning of being diagnosed, Like, well, if I just work harder and I instead of double check things, I triple check them or quadruple check them, and then I redo it, and then I adjust it, and then I tweak it. Like, the perfectionism was was real. And I totally just lost my train of thought.
Tami Hackbarth [00:40:02]:
How does self care affect your work?
Patricia Sung [00:40:05]:
Just and, like, I'm like, don't edit that out because I want people to know, like, when you have ADHD and it's hard to have coherent coherent thoughts sometimes, like, it's okay for us to show up like that and be like, I don't remember what I was saying. Alright. Cool. That's what we're doing. Let's go.
Tami Hackbarth [00:40:18]:
Yeah. Totally.
Patricia Sung [00:40:19]:
We don't have to show up as perfect in order to do things well, and that is that was my coping mechanism of choice for a long time. And now I've realized after much strife and therapy is that when I take care of myself, everything else is better. Hands down. Especially, if I'm showing up as a coach for other people, I can't show up and be present for people when I'm on the struggle bus. I mean, I can and I will. Like, you know, your kid gets a stomach bug and you're up all night. Like, I'm if I'm still, like, pretty decent, I can still show up and coach you, and you're gonna get amazing stuff out of it. But if that's my habit, if that is my pattern, that is my every day, I'm not really doing my best job.
Patricia Sung [00:41:02]:
So there is a lot of conviction in what I do is that like, the reason I developed this like, there's a free video in the toolkit about, like, 10 ways to calm down when you're losing your ish on your kids, and I call her Medusa mom. Medusa mom shows up at bedtime with, like, all the snakes hissing. You know, Medusa would if you, like, looked at her, she would turn you to stone. It's like anyone who looks at mom is, like, turns to stone. So they're like, run for your mom. But when you have little kids, they don't they don't know that and they just take it. And then you're like, I'm scarred them for life.
Tami Hackbarth [00:41:30]:
Money to the therapy jar stat.
Patricia Sung [00:41:33]:
Like, I made that because I needed that. It was for me. I needed to understand how do I figure out how to take care of myself, especially with you know, I am running 2 businesses. I am active in my community, into my church. I am on a health journey myself of I've been, recovering from mold toxicity for the last 4 years. And all the ways that I am giving and needing to be taken care of, like, when I don't take care of myself, it shows. So I have to practice what I preach because when it's coming to a head, I know. And, like, it's it is clear on those days.
Patricia Sung [00:42:12]:
Like, my husband's out of town for 4 weeks in a row, and, like, I'm just trying to get everybody together to have a I just want a nice dinner where nobody fights. Like, when you start saying those things, when I'm not taking care of myself, like, it all goes in the toilet. So I know that this is the key piece for me to keep my sanity, is to take care of myself. And, like, it was highlighted to me yesterday where there's I meet with a group of there's 3 other ladies. So there's 4 of us that meet once a month, and we're all, like, small group leaders in our church. So it's like a like a group to support the leaders. And 1 of the girls told me, like, yesterday, my husband was out of town. He saw the town.
Patricia Sung [00:42:54]:
My kid was homesick from school. I'm you know, we're recording this ahead of time. So, like, I'm in about to release tickets for my retreat, so we're still, like, you know, testing all the bugs and making sure all the things work correctly. It's it's Maycember, y'all. We're recording this in Maycember. It's bonkers. And now I'm supposed to have people over to my house and there's swim practice, and we gotta go because we have to pick up the the swimsuit. It's the the day to pick up to buy your swimsuit.
Patricia Sung [00:43:21]:
And it was like, how the heck am I gonna get all this done? Now I have a sick kid on top of it. I was already like, woah, this is a lot. Now I got sick kid and my husband's out of town. So my instinct was like, where do I start to cut things? But what I didn't cut was meeting up with these friends because I knew that this was going to give me life to make it through the next 48 hours where I'm still juggling all the things in the middle of May, and I don't have my partner here to support. So I'm not cutting that because I know that spending time with women who I really align with in my values is going to give me the energy to make it through. I love those, like, deep conversations where it's like, tell me about your deep seated trauma. Let's discuss. I'm like, if you are, like, sending a networking party, then I'm like, oh, I'm I'm really gonna have to, like, rally my energy here to show up and network and, like, do the small talk.
Patricia Sung [00:44:15]:
But if you wanna discuss, like, your your dad problems, I'm in. Let's discuss. Dig in. So I'm like, I need this group. And 1 of the other moms said to me at the end, she was like, I don't know. Like, she was like, I don't understand how, like, you were like, no, y'all, I'm gonna make this work. And you were like, I'm not cutting this out. This is not the thing I'm jettisoning today.
Patricia Sung [00:44:36]:
Because she's like, for me, as soon as things get hard, I cut, you know, talking to my friends or, like, the things that take care of me, that's the first thing to go. And she's like, I have watched you all year say, I have this thing. I'm giving you a heads up. I'm gonna try to make it. I wanna be there. And she's like, that has changed the way that I look at this because she's like, this is the thing I would give up when things were hard. And it was really like, it meant a lot because she's also a mom of a child who has a lot of medical issues, like, way beyond, like, you know, like, lots of hospital stays and surgeries and all that. And she's like, my gut is just we'll just get rid of the friend time.
Patricia Sung [00:45:13]:
So this isn't a a mom who's, like, a stranger to struggle. She's she's in it. And she was like, that gives me so much life to see you putting that first. And I was like, oh, wow. Like, I never thought if I was really just thinking they were like, oh my gosh. Patricia's such a hot mess. Why can't she ever show up to these things without drama? And instead of she was like, no. This is showing me, like, this matters.
Patricia Sung [00:45:33]:
Like, figure it out because this time of connection matters. And it's this taking care of you matters. And that is why I continue to put self care on my list as, like, this is the thing I'm not going to cut because that is how I have the energy to make the good decisions and not lose my shit on my kids, especially, like, to be honest with y'all, I'm I'm coming right up on my cycle. And normally, like, I don't schedule interviews in that, but my cycle shifted. I'm doing, you you know, perimenopause and all that nonsense. Like, I was not expecting to be going into my cycle of this day full of interviews because usually words are very hard, and I can't talk like a coherent human. And I'm like, but I this matters to me. These are the things that give me life.
Patricia Sung [00:46:23]:
I can sit here and talk to you for 6 hours and still have more energy. These don't drain me. This is, like, life giving to me. So I was like, okay. Assuming that words still work, I'm gonna show up because this gives me life. Now if I just have a day where it's like, I literally can't think of the word ball and you're gonna have to forgive me, like, okay, then we reschedule. But I can't I can't continue to put myself last because then I don't have anything to give anyone else. Totally.
Patricia Sung [00:46:49]:
And I don't wanna show up like that.
Tami Hackbarth [00:46:51]:
It's like the realization I had early in teaching. And by realization, it was my husband saying over and over. You cannot, no 1, no human is capable of sprinting a marathon. And I was like, you're just not trying hard enough. Well, let me show you and me learning quickly. But I did that repeated thing because by the, the, by winter break of my 1st year of teaching, I was like, oh my God, I've gave, I've given it all. I have nothing else to give and they want me to do this for 6 more months. How will I do that? I mean, I did it, but let me tell you, I limped for a big part of that and realizing that time and energy are not the same.
Tami Hackbarth [00:47:40]:
No, they're not. They are it is like pigs and construction. They are different. Time is a thing. Energy, you can it's regenerative. Right? Some things suck the life out of you no matter how long they take, and some things give you energy no hell longer, no no matter how long they take. Yeah. And for me, when I was teaching, teaching and motherhood, in my mind, the exact same.
Tami Hackbarth [00:48:13]:
That shit is relentless. It is invisible. It is undervalued. It is never fucking done. And you know what? When you're faced with a thing that's never done, the answer is not work harder because it is never done. We have to have the wherewithal to go, well. I'm done. I have given everything I can for the day and I will refresh myself and come back in again tomorrow.
Tami Hackbarth [00:48:48]:
Because there is a point of diminishing returns. It comes way faster than we realize. Like you don't get more done the more hours that you work. You get crappier work the longer that you work and letting that be okay. Like, we're swimming in this, like, grind culture, and I'm like, Yeah, that doesn't work for humans. It doesn't even work for machines. It doesn't work for the soil when you're gardening. Like, if machines get to take time off, because if you use them too much, you wear them out and they break and you have to replace them.
Patricia Sung [00:49:23]:
Mhmm.
Tami Hackbarth [00:49:24]:
What the fuck? Like, we're shit like, I am not as as strong as a machine. So I I am just saying, I reject that overworking culture because it who bet who benefits from that? It's not the people who are grinding. No. It's for the people who are making money at the top and it ain't any of us. So you got 1 life, take care of yourself. Now we're gonna get into the nitty gritty because you and me, I'm a gen Xer. You are a cuspy. You're cuspy.
Tami Hackbarth [00:50:03]:
What do you call yourself? Some people are geriatric millennials.
Patricia Sung [00:50:06]:
Yeah. But geriatric millennials. Because I'm in that space of, like, 1980 to 80 I think it's 85 where it's like, we were in that, like, where the Internet started, where cell phones started. Like, I didn't have any of that in my childhood, but in high school is when all that stuff started. So, like, we got the dial up Internet in high school that was like that beep beep.
Tami Hackbarth [00:50:27]:
That was 1 of my favorite sounds. I want to make that my ringtone. I don't get that until 10 years later. So like in my late twenties. So it, it delights me when I hear that. I'm like, that's such a sound from the olden days.
Patricia Sung [00:50:41]:
It is. And oh my gosh. I was trying to explain rotary phones to my kids the other day because it was in a so my youngest is in kindergarten, and they bring home these, like, re you know, these, like, early reader books, and it was, like, technology modern technology or, like, technology of the future or something like that. But this book was clearly written in, like, the nineties. And so, like, all the new quote, air quote, new technologies that this book had was, like, flip phones, and, like, they were, like, showing, like, the kid dialing the rotary phone and then the kid with the flip phone. It was, like, I was dying. Because when I was teaching 7th grade typing back in the day, I would have to bring in, like, the the the floppy disc and then the c like, the 3 inch and the 5 inch floppy disk and explain to the kids, like, this is how I took my things to school. And if you crumpled it, all your stuff was lost.
Patricia Sung [00:51:25]:
Like, they were just baffled that, like I mean, and this is even I mean, I was teaching 10 years ago. It's like we had thumb drives. Like, there was no cloud. And so, anyway, I'm totally getting up on a tangent. It was what was I supposed to be talking about?
Tami Hackbarth [00:51:37]:
What did you learn about self care growing up in the, in the pre creation era?
Patricia Sung [00:51:42]:
Yes.
Tami Hackbarth [00:51:42]:
Right. Because, because be then we had, like, there was only a handful of channels on the TV. There was a handful of magazines. And so we were really learning from the people around us because we couldn't go on Tik TOK and find out about mental health. We couldn't go on Tik TOK and find out, about ADHD. We couldn't connect with people that we felt a kinship with because we shared some quirks. Right. We had to go, if we wanted to learn something, we're like, shit, I guess I'm gonna go to the encyclopedia in the den or go to the library
Patricia Sung [00:52:15]:
and go over there with the card catalog. But that's how we found things in the day.
Tami Hackbarth [00:52:21]:
Yes. Well, clearly,
Patricia Sung [00:52:22]:
it was rules and rules. It was a lonely line. Like, the dewy decimal system, you actually had to understand because otherwise you weren't buying anything. But I think it's like the is it again, it's I think there's pluses and minuses to everything. And when I think back to, like, childhood in the eighties nineties, that on 1 hand, I think it's really wonderful that we didn't have social media, and there was no comparing what other people were doing. And I think about, you know, teenagers now who immediately know that they didn't get invited to the thing, and they can see everyone's pictures on TikTok or Instagram or whatever the cool thing the kids are using these days. Like, you know that you are at home by yourself and everyone else is having fun. And when I was in high school, you didn't find out that you missed any fun until Monday, and then you knew that the cop showed up.
Patricia Sung [00:53:05]:
So you're like, oh, I missed that 1. And it was okay. But you didn't know that you were missing out in the moment. So I think that part was really wonderful about our childhood. However, you didn't have access to all the information that is here today. And I think back to, like, my mom so I'm 1 of 5 kids. My mom was a stay at home mom, and she
Tami Hackbarth [00:53:25]:
What birth order are you?
Patricia Sung [00:53:26]:
Are you I'm the oldest.
Tami Hackbarth [00:53:28]:
Oh, you're the old okay. Yes. I'm buckling in for the oldest daughter. Go ahead.
Patricia Sung [00:53:33]:
Yes. Enneagram 1, oldest daughter, recovering perfectionist. I took all the boxes.
Tami Hackbarth [00:53:37]:
I'm in enneagram 1. Do you wing 2 or do you wing 9? Because I wait. I'm like 9. I am not a peacemaker.
Patricia Sung [00:53:45]:
I I think I might be wing 9. I I always thought it was at wing 2, but I think I'm actually wing 9. I'm much more conflict averse than telling people advice they don't wanna hear. Younger Patricia definitely told a lot of people advice they did not want nor ask for. Now I'd I see the the wing 9 is much more popping up. And, also, my husband is an Enneagram 1, which is a thing, y'all. And I actually think that he's wing 2 because he has he'll happily tell you his opinion and what you should do. So I think he's wing 2.
Patricia Sung [00:54:16]:
All this time, honestly, I thought he was an 8 because he's so bossy, but I think that's the wing 2 coming up. But anyways, I'm getting off on a tangent. What I saw is that, like, as the oldest of 5, and my mom was a stay at home mom, and she loved being a mom. She that's all she wanted to do. And my mom had 3 miscarriages before she had me. So I was her rainbow baby, and they were 2 of them were like I mean, if there's so such thing as, like, an uneventful miscarriage, like, it was sad but not traumatic, and there was 1 that was very traumatic. And so they spent many years, a lot of you know, I'm sure back in the day, the equivalent of $1, 000, 000, 000 doing genetic testing and trying to figure out what was going on because my mom really wanted to be a mom. But the way that shaped me is that I watched my mom be selfless.
Patricia Sung [00:54:59]:
And she my guess is, like, she passed away 20 years ago. So, you know, there's a lot of things I wish I could ask her. But I think she was an Enneagram 9, actually. Like, she was very conflict averse, and she didn't she didn't take care of herself. And not necessarily, like, in a bad way. I don't like, I'm like, I don't know that I necessarily put, like, a negative connotation on it because I don't I don't know that like, I don't know. I'm like, I don't know if she missed out on that or she wishes it was different. I don't know.
Patricia Sung [00:55:25]:
I don't know. I can't ask her. But she really loved being a mom, and my mom also loved being pregnant. So I thought that motherhood was really easy because my mom made it look easy. But she also was somebody who, like, you know, bought her clothes at Walmart and would buy, you know, the same shirt in 4 colors or patterns, and she was just a very, like, low maintenance, chill person. She was not into like, she didn't do her hair unless it was a fancy occasion, and she also had really straight hair. So as soon as she walked out of the house with the curls, they all fell out. Like, she rarely ever wore lipstick.
Patricia Sung [00:55:57]:
Like, it just she wasn't a girly mom. And I I think it made me feel like motherhood was really beautiful. And I think that's part of why I struggled so much when it was so hard for me is that I thought it was gonna be easy. Like, I thought being a teacher that I was gonna be a great mom. Like, I thought that those skills were transferable. Lo and behold, as annoying as some children are in school, none of them will ever compare to the level of annoyance that you can find with your own children. Where do we where's
Tami Hackbarth [00:56:26]:
the paper I cosign that?
Patricia Sung [00:56:28]:
Like, where the like, that that level of button pushing is reserved for your children.
Tami Hackbarth [00:56:33]:
Even, like, because they installed the buttons.
Patricia Sung [00:56:35]:
They did. It was part of the process of of of accumulating them in your life.
Tami Hackbarth [00:56:39]:
Mhmm.
Patricia Sung [00:56:40]:
The button was installed. It's time to be true to you. You're invited, mama, to this year's 3rd annual successful as a mother weekend retreat. It is time to relax, unwind, rest, and take care of a very important person in the family, which is you. This year's retreat is on October 11 through 13, 2024, and you're invited. This is an all inclusive retreat. It covers your meals, your hotel, all of our activities. All you have to do is show up, and I take it from there.
Patricia Sung [00:57:18]:
We are staying in the historic boutique hotel, the Sam Houston in downtown Houston, where we will learn about our ADHD, tune in to who you are and what you need so that you can trust your gut, all while eating delicious food you didn't cook, you didn't clean up, hanging out with awesome other moms who are just like you in their ADHD journey, trying to make things work, fill out the permission slips, do all the things, but not this weekend. This weekend you get to relax. I will take care of everything, and you get to focus on you. Head over to my website patricasung dotcom/retreat and grab your ticket. This is a small group, and we already have 5 moms from last year coming, so I don't have a ton of spots left. Do not wait. Do not procrastinate. When you hear this and you say this is for me, go grab your ticket.
Patricia Sung [00:58:09]:
You can use a payment plan. I don't charge extra for that. Go sign up, get your ticket, and take a weekend to take care of you while I do all the work. So head over to patricasung.comforward/retreat and get your ticket for the 3rd annual ADHD moms amazing getaway weekend and relax. Patricasong.comforward/retreat. And I just didn't I never saw my mom take care of herself. Like, I never saw my mom do girly things like doing her hair or, you know, she was not a shopper unless it's a grocery store. Like, my parents, I don't think they ever went away just the 2 of them in my memories.
Patricia Sung [00:58:56]:
I wanna say they might have when I was really little, and they only had, like, 1 or 2 kids at that point. They might have. But, like, my parents never went on dates. We rarely ever had babysitters, and it would only be, like, my dad's Christmas party for work. Like, they we didn't go out to eat. Like, my mom made every meal for 7 people for how you know, basically until like, from when she got married until she passed away. Like, I feel like I had this beautiful example of selfless motherhood, but I did not have an example of, like, how do you take care of yourself as a person? And I think back to, like, the resources we did have available, it's like, well, Cosmo magazine in, like, 17 sure weren't adding to this conversation in a positive way. I just didn't I didn't see that.
Patricia Sung [00:59:45]:
And so I think that's a lot of, you know, people who are in, you know, you're in my generation here and you're, you know, in their forties fifties of, like, this when we think about the self care of our parents' generation, I don't know that it really was self care. I think there was some times where they were doing things for themselves, but I don't know that I would necessarily categorize it as the most restorative or the most restful. Like, they were doing things for themselves, but I feel like it I'm like and I don't wanna sound too judgy, but it's like it feels like it was bordered more on, like, the selfishness of, like, well, but I wanna go do this thing. Not necessarily that it was caring for them and helping them. So III just feel like there wasn't that from my childhood. So when I got to be a mom and I thought, like, it was gonna look like my mom's motherhood, and it did not, That was part of the, like, struggle in realizing, like, wow. I I'm not cut out. I I really felt like I'm not cut out for this.
Patricia Sung [01:00:46]:
This is not what I expected. I'm not doing a good job of it. And I had to not only figure out actually how to take care of myself, but then also deal with the guilt and the shame that came with, like, why isn't my motherhood this, like, glorious euphoria that I thought it was going to be? Why is what's wrong with me that I don't think this is easy and fun that, you know, I'm like, humans have been feeding their babies like this for 100, 1, 000, 000, 1, 000 I don't know how many years. Yeah.
Tami Hackbarth [01:01:15]:
You're like, all of the years. Right?
Patricia Sung [01:01:18]:
All all the humans managed to survive until the invention of formula in, like, what was that? Like, the fifties? Fifties? Like and I can't figure this out. I really struggled with breastfeeding. And it was such a a process to accept myself as I was and not what I thought I was going to be, and then learn how to take care of myself in a way that made sense. Because I I literally can't do my best work when I'm struggling this hard. So I have to
Tami Hackbarth [01:01:47]:
I have to say, I have been doing this podcast for 5 years, and I feel like and then maybe because I resonate so deeply with so many things that you said, that was a really honest fucking answer, and I really, really appreciate that. And and so you took on the story that because your mom was such a great mom and cared for you to all of you in such a way that you thought I've got this, I've got this role model. It's gonna be easy. And I looked at the way I was raised and I was like, that shit looks hella hard. Why would anyone sign up for that? Absa fucking littly not. No. Uh-uh. And it wasn't until I was in my late thirties.
Tami Hackbarth [01:02:36]:
Like my husband and I had a lot of conversations about being child free by choice for a very long time. I will save you all up. Maybe I will tell you that story at some point. And it, as it turns out, we did become parents. And I think that there are a lot of skills that transfer from being a teacher to being a parent, but oh my God, the relentlessness of home with a baby, with a toddler, with a pre I was like, oh my Lord. I went into motherhood thinking this shit's going to be hella hard. And you know what? It is so fucking easy in the ways I thought it was gonna be hard. And it is so hard in the ways that I didn't expect it.
Tami Hackbarth [01:03:25]:
And I was like, yeah, no, there's no escaping that, oh my God, this is hard because we are different parents because we've never been parents before. And our kids are actually individuals that are not us. Yeah. And if you have more than 1, you're like, oh my god. Now I have to parent responsibly to the more multiple people. What? Yeah. I can't just be a parent. I gotta be a parent this way for that 1 and that way for this 1.
Tami Hackbarth [01:03:57]:
Holy shit.
Patricia Sung [01:03:58]:
And then we also, as moms, often will then try to manage our relationship the relationship between our partner and each individual child, and then all the children between each other. And all of a sudden, you went from just trying to figure out how to be a good partner to managing, like, exponentially more people. The more people that come in, the exponential number of relationships that come in. And, no, a lot of them is not your responsibility.
Tami Hackbarth [01:04:22]:
There's a fair play card for that.
Patricia Sung [01:04:23]:
Yeah. There's a lot of that we take on that isn't actually our responsibility and we don't need to manage. But also, like, as the mom, yes, you still have to teach your kids how to all interact in a way that makes sense for everybody. But it is yeah, I I like the way you put it. It's like a lot of the things that I thought were gonna be easy were really hard, and I do draw a lot from my teaching experience. There's so much that I get out of, like, really understanding so I taught middle school. Like, understanding how kids between, like, 1013 function. Like, I I have a lot of wisdom there to offer.
Patricia Sung [01:04:58]:
And it is very different when I get to spend 45 minutes with you and send you on your way, And then this kid is still here 18 years later. It's a whole another ball game.
Tami Hackbarth [01:05:09]:
A whole another ball game. Also, the kids at school, they do not see us on our pajamas or before we've had our medication or in the middle of the goddamn night when they get up for no reason. And then wake you
Patricia Sung [01:05:23]:
up by sitting by the edge of your bed and like out
Tami Hackbarth [01:05:25]:
of a stormy. Yeah. Those are great. It's just that's my fault. So I will say I've been paid back in spades for that. The other thing I wanted to comment on, and I wish I would have commented on this in every other interview I've ever done. And that is we cannot separate our self care and what we grew up with without also looking at the con the historical context of what was happening. Because like my mom is a stay at home, stay at home mom and I walk myself to kindergarten.
Tami Hackbarth [01:05:56]:
Let's put it that way. I grew up in the Bay Area in the seventies, and you know what? It was a double income situation then. And so, you know, it it's like our moms had way less choices than we did. Yeah. It it I mean, it's it's also contextual. And also just like our kids are learning what it means to be grownups from watching what we're doing, we were learning how to be grownups from them. And that's why I asked that question because it's like, well, if I learned 1 thing from my parents and and the the media there and my community then leads me to the next question, which is, so we kinda didn't learn about self care growing up. Mhmm.
Tami Hackbarth [01:06:44]:
How do we successfully then become grown ups who prioritize self care and not just the kind that you can buy at target. Yeah. Right. So how, so how have you added self care practices And I'm going to be, I'm going to be frank. The reason I'm good at there or the reason I'm good at therapy, also good at therapy. The reason I'm good at self care is because every single therapist I have had from age 10 on through the course of my life has been like, this is how you take care of yourself. If you do these activities you will feel better, This will improve your mental health. And I was like, you know what? I guess I'm gonna try what the medical professionals are telling me versus than what I learned.
Tami Hackbarth [01:07:32]:
So what about you? What was the, like, what was the shift? How did you become somebody that now prioritizes deeply restorative self care for yourself as a grown up?
Patricia Sung [01:07:48]:
I think I became that person because I had to. I'm like, oh, Tammy, you might start crying. When I, like, I try not to get too in I know I try not to share too much about other people's struggles in my family. That's not my business. That's their place to share those things. But what I will say is that when I was really struggling, it was this moment of, like, either I'm gonna figure out how to make this work, or I'm gonna become the stories of the other people in my family. And I did not want to become the person who drowned their problems in alcohol, and I did not want to become the person who was recreational using drugs, and I did not wanna become the person who just pretended like everything was fine and just lived miserably. I knew that my choice was either to do all those things that I said I wasn't gonna do or figure out how to make it That was the pivotal moment.
Patricia Sung [01:08:42]:
I don't like, I don't think it like, it wasn't like this, like, epiphany moment where I was like, this is it. Are you gonna be coming them? Are you gonna be, like, mountains? It wasn't like that movie, like the fancy music goes in the movie and you're like, this is the moment. No, it wasn't that. It was literally like me trying to figure out and looking around and being like, but I don't want that. I don't want that. How do I not do that? And, like, if there was, like, a pivotal moment, I think it was honestly when my my oldest was probably about I wanna say it was, like, maybe, like, 2 or 3. And I had just had ingrown toenail surgery, which apologies if that grosses you out. But they they they cut they cut your nail to remove the ingrown part so that and then apologies again, then they, like, freeze dried the nail bed so it doesn't keep growing in that area.
Patricia Sung [01:09:34]:
So I'm I have 2 feet that have been very or or in a lot of pain. And I had gone into such an argument with my 3 year old, and he was so mad that he tried to stomp on my feet. And I, like, looked at him, and I was like like, even telling the story, I was, like, I was, like, shocked that, like, there's this little person acting out so hard that he really wanted to hurt me. And granted, he didn't have any concept of what that actually meant. But I was like, but I contributed to this, and I allowed this situation to escalate to the point where he got to that point, and all of a sudden it was this, like, out of body experience. And I know now, like, for me in parenting, when things start to really go to shit, I have this kind of, like, out of body experience where I'm watching this situation and realizing, like, oh, shit. Patricia, you gotta do something different because this isn't it. And I can't always stop myself.
Patricia Sung [01:10:29]:
Sometimes it still gets worse before it gets better. But as soon as I have like, now that I'm aware of this, when I have that out of body, like, seeing the situation from the outside and being like, oh, this ain't it. We we, like, throw up the red flags, send out the red alerts. Like, something has to be different. And, like, I will say, with all the changes that I need, I think I've had 1 situation like that probably in the last year. Whereas I think back to the beginning few years of my parenting journey, it was constant. And that moment where I looked at my 3 year old who was so stomping mad and so out of control that his response was, I want to hurt you, I realized, like, I this is not how I wanna raise my kids. This is not the example that I want them to see is that mom gets so mad and then I get so mad and everybody's yelling.
Patricia Sung [01:11:19]:
I was like, this is not this is not sustainable, and I refuse to be okay with it. And it, yeah, it took me a while. I mean, granted my my kids are all out. It's been many years of work on this, so it's not it's not an overnight thing. And there's still like I said, there was, you know, there was 1 recently where I was, like, losing my mind. I was like, oh my goodness. Like, it didn't get quite that bad, but it was that moment where I was like, I'm not in control here. And I don't want my kids to grow up and have those memories of, like, those emotional scars of grown ups in their life that they can't trust and are not safe.
Patricia Sung [01:11:57]:
So what do I need to do to not be that? That's where, like that's why I do it. So when I think about, like like, how do I do this though, is that I do a lot of work with neuroplasticity and rewiring our brain. So, like, when you're when you're in that moment and you all sudden realize like, oh, crap. This is this shit's hitting the fan. Like, I gotta do something different here. Knowing beforehand what you're going to do in that moment because when you're in that level of stress and your brain is not online, you have no problem solving skills available to you.
Tami Hackbarth [01:12:32]:
You don't know any of this to Dan Siegel calls it flipping your lead. It's like Yes. You are fucking cooked. Yes. Like nothing. There is nothing good that is coming after this. You gotta, you gotta get your shit together. You gotta put your lid back on so that you can respond rather than react.
Patricia Sung [01:12:51]:
Yes. And so, like, I do a lot with my coaching. You understand, like, where you are on that stress ladder. I'm like, my therapist was, hey. Nothing good happens after 5. Like, on a scale from 1 to 10, if you're past 5, nothing good's happening. And a lot of times, we don't know, especially with for those of us with ADHD, we don't recognize the signs that we've gotten to 5 or 6 or 7. It's not until we've totally lost our shit at 9 or 10 that we realize, oh, this I'm not in a good place.
Patricia Sung [01:13:15]:
So it's learning so, like, I guess, back up. It's knowing what are you gonna do in those times because when you're at 9 or 10, you cannot employ all the brilliant things that you have read or learned or whatever. It no. They're gone, and you're in, like, primal survival mode. The tiger's attacking. You're not gonna be
Tami Hackbarth [01:13:32]:
like, what did I read
Patricia Sung [01:13:33]:
in that book last week? No. Like, this shit's going down. In that moment, those of you are, they're
Tami Hackbarth [01:13:38]:
like, wait a second. You're like, in that moment, you are fighting, you are Yes. Fleeing, you are fawning, or you are freezing.
Patricia Sung [01:13:46]:
Freezing. Those are your choices.
Tami Hackbarth [01:13:48]:
It's not like fawning.
Patricia Sung [01:13:49]:
They're all my toolbox options here.
Tami Hackbarth [01:13:51]:
Yeah.
Patricia Sung [01:13:51]:
So when you're in that place and you know what your patterns you, like, you will learn what your patterns are if you don't already know them. Like, it's pretty quick for you to know, like, well, when things get bad, here's what I do. Okay. Well, what are we gonna do instead? What's what's the 1 thing? We're not trying to like, but it's not it's not a 10 step process here. What's the 1 thing that's gonna get us calmer so that we can start to move out of that fight, flight, flee, freeze, fawn, whichever 1 I missed, so that you can start to repair through things. And being able to apologize is a big piece of that. But knowing, like, what did it feel like when you were at 8 or at 7 or at 5 or even at 4 or 3 so that you can start to recognize that you're on the way to 9 and do something about it when you actually have the capacity to do that. Because in
Tami Hackbarth [01:14:34]:
other words, I pay attention to the signals in my actual physical body. Mhmm. Is that what that is that 1 of your processes of, like, you're like, oh, suddenly I'm really flushed. Yeah. Suddenly I'm squeezing my hands suddenly. Is that is it? So are you noticing the physical, signals?
Patricia Sung [01:14:57]:
Yeah. And everybody's different. So a lot of people are very physically based and they'll notice like my cheeks are starting to get hot or I feel my like, it feels like my chest is getting tight. Like, a lot of those signals for people are very they're easier to grab onto, but some people are not very somatically aware, especially if you've had a lot of trauma in your background. You may be very attached from your physical self. So in that case, we look at, like, well, what are your thoughts doing? Do you hear like, are there certain phrases you hear yourself saying? It could be using it to yourself or it could be other people saying, like, those triggering sayings. Is it your internal narrator is now, like like, Patricia, you're such a fuck up. Like, how could you you're, like, ruining your children forever.
Patricia Sung [01:15:36]:
Like, is that what you're hearing? Are you hearing those intrusive thoughts? Is that is that what's showing up? Is it, like, just your thoughts are moving so fast that you can't seem to grab on to any of them? Like, there's a lot of ways that your stress levels show up. And for you, there's going to be some common factors. And to be honest, you don't need to understand all of them. You just need 1 or 2 to be like, these are my red flags that something's going wrong. Because if you can recognize that when you're totally lost your shit, like, obviously, hindsight 2020, then we can start working backwards because you're going to notice those when they're happening at, like, 7 or 8. They're leading in, and then you get more aware of what's happening at 7 or 8. When you can put a description to 7 or 8, then you can start to understand what 5 feels like. And when I do a ton of analogies, especially a lot of people with ADHD are very analogy driven, it's like, you know, when you're feeling like that, like, what do you picture? Do you feel like you are a trapped monkey, like, ready to just, like, bust out of the cage? Do you feel like the weight of the world is a cement block and sitting on your chest? Like, can you put a picture to that so that you know this is what it feels like when I'm starting to lose my shit? Because the earlier you can recognize it, the earlier you can start to do something about it.
Patricia Sung [01:16:50]:
But then it also comes in the morning of, like, in the first half of the day, what are those things that are really draining your energy or making you stressed out that you go from 1 to 5, excuse me, like, very quickly? Because on the days where you have to deal with your ornery mother-in-law, there's gonna be days where you probably need more care than if you were hanging out with friends at brunch. So what can we do to make sure that you still have capacity after you deal with that? Or, like, maybe you're, like, doing taxes and you're like, I hate taxes. It's really draining for me. Because like you said, like, time and energy are 2 different things. And when we think about, like, the difference between, like, kairos time and Kronos time of, like, Kronos is chronological. So, like, you know, it's been 5 minutes, it's been 10 minutes, it's been 15 minutes. Whereas, like, the idea of chiro's time is, like, when you're having a really awesome conversation with a friend, and all of a sudden you're like, oh my god. It's been 2 hours.
Patricia Sung [01:17:38]:
Has just gone by in a flash? Or you're like, how is it that I've only been standing here in front of this crowd for 30 seconds? I feel like I'm going to die of it, like, stage fright. Like, that feeling of the time is very real, and that can be used to then restore your energy. So if you know that, like, sitting down and coloring with your kids before you do homework is gonna lower everybody's anxiety, cool. Now we have capacity to actually do homework as opposed to yelling at everybody that they need to start their homework and nobody's doing anything, and then you're just you you know, the whole rest of the night, you're yelling, yelling, yelling. Taking that 15 minutes to have everybody color means that the homework actually got done. Do you feel like you have 15 minutes to color? Absolutely not. But if you don't do the 15 minutes of coloring
Tami Hackbarth [01:18:24]:
Do you have 3 hours to fight?
Patricia Sung [01:18:25]:
Right. Do you have 3 hours to fight with your
Tami Hackbarth [01:18:27]:
We we call that we call that paying the piper. We're like, we're gonna pay with board games or coloring or TV or a walk or a snack or all of them. And then we're going to get what we want. We buy cooperation with cooperation.
Patricia Sung [01:18:46]:
Yes. And a lot of times, like, we feel like we're not being good parents if we don't make sure they do their homework right away. And it's like, no, you know your kid best. You know that if you spend 15 minutes coloring or 15 minutes running around the park, down the street, like, whatever it is that your kid needs, And that way, everybody's able to get through the evening without, you know, fist fight. Hey. Let's make that happen. But it goes for you too as a parent of what are those things that you can do that are gonna bring you energy. Just like I'm like, did I really need to stand like, stay up until 10 PM chatting with my friends last night? Responsible, Patricia's like, no.
Patricia Sung [01:19:21]:
You should've gone to bed. But I left that conversation just lit up. And I was like, okay. I am I mean, it takes me a little while to wind down. I was like, k. Run on the kitchen and clean up the, you know, the disaster from dinner. But then I feel so energized today that that was worth it. And so, like, we can't just look at, like, the minutes it cost us.
Patricia Sung [01:19:43]:
What's the energy that it you have to expend or that you gain from that? That's just as much of a important transaction as the 15 minutes that it cost.
Tami Hackbarth [01:19:57]:
So if you I wish we could get rid of clocks and just have energy meters because I feel like people, they conflate, they, they, they, they say like, like there's like, well, if that takes 15 minutes and I'm losing 15 minutes, I'm like, that's actually not how this works. You're taking this 15 minutes so that you get 3 hours of not fighting with your kid back. I take a 30 minute walk so that I have energy for 3 hours in the afternoon. That's why I'm like, when people fight me on, well, I don't have time. I'm like, the reason you don't have time is because you don't have energy. What you're looking for is you're looking for energy to do your life well. Fuck the clock.
Patricia Sung [01:20:50]:
Yeah. And I think we don't we I think collectively as a human, we don't quite understand this concept yet, but imagine if everybody was doing the things that really lit them up and that you could do super fast. Like, I think about, like, when I first started my podcast 5 years ago, I was doing all the editing myself. So through episode 17, I did it all myself, and I realized that the perfectionist in me was taking, like, 4 hours to edit a 15 minute episode. So I went on freelancer.com, found my editor. He's awesome. He still works with me now. So we've been together 5 years.
Patricia Sung [01:21:23]:
And he can take a 15 minute episode and edit it in, like, 30 minutes, maybe 45. So what was taking me 4 hours to trudge through because, I mean, I have a basic understanding of it, but I'm not an expert. I don't have any of the fancy programs that, like, automatically take out the pauses when they're really long. Like, I don't have any of that. So I'm manually doing 4 hours of hard work, and it's taking me a lot of brainpower. Plus I'd be like, oh, I didn't like how this sounded. I should rerecord that. Let me insert and here, it's taking literally 4 hours to do a 15 minute episode, and I send it to Roman.
Patricia Sung [01:21:59]:
And Roman sends it back to me and charges me for a half an hour or 45 minutes of time. And I'm like, what how many things could I have accomplished in the if I have 4 hours back, I can do a lot of things to make however much money that is. Let's say it's $20. You know how much stuff I could do to make $20 if I had 4 hours? And I didn't have any of the stress of figuring
Tami Hackbarth [01:22:25]:
it out. Why on earth
Patricia Sung [01:22:26]:
am I spending 4 hours to do this thing I hate when I can pay somebody else $20? I get 4 hours of my life back, and I can make money doing the thing that I actually like doing. Like Yeah. What what is this nonsense?
Tami Hackbarth [01:22:38]:
Why is You know what's funny? You know, what's funny is it took me a few years to hire somebody because not, not for the podcast. I have. I've been podcasting for 5 years, Katie chief of staff, amazing human. My work BFF has done every single 1 of these episodes because I just didn't start a podcast for literally 7 years. Because I was like, there is 0 chance that I wanna learn the back end of having, having to do that. I was like, no. So I guess I can't do a podcast. And then somebody just, they were like, why don't you just hire an editor? And I was like, again, what seems obvious to other people? I would've never gotten there.
Tami Hackbarth [01:23:18]:
And once I did that, I was like, oh my God. And that was exactly it. We're playing to our strengths. I do the talking part. She does the editing part. It makes perfect sense. But, again, it's it's energy. It's not just time.
Tami Hackbarth [01:23:35]:
And again, this framework of time versus energy can be applied to your entire life. Yeah.
Patricia Sung [01:23:42]:
Like, I mean, right now, as I speak, I'm hiding in the back of the house because our cleaning lady is here. And a lot of people with ADHD, I'm like, this is a really good accommodation for you is to hire somebody else to clean. Because, like, she can clean my whole house in, like, 5 hours, and it's done. Whereas, I would clean the house, and then I'm like, oh, look at this picture album I need to put away. Start flipping through pictures. Oh, wait. Here's these papers from school that I haven't sorted through, and I start doing that. Like, there's no way I could clean my whole house in 5 hours even if I tried.
Patricia Sung [01:24:14]:
Even if somebody followed around behind me and was like, Patricia, keep cleaning. Nope. Don't do that, Patricia. Because they'll be like, I still would not get the house cleaned in 5 hours. And then I can spend that time doing a podcast interview or, you know, hanging out with my kids, and I can then, like, I could even if I wasn't doing something fun, even if I could just work that 5 hours and then pay somebody else to do the cleaning, it is still a even if it was, like, a 1 for 1 exchange, like, if I was then paying the exact amount that she's that I'm paying her to clean the house, that is a win because I don't like cleaning. Because I want I need it to be perfect, and then I never finish anything. And I get to the end and I'm exhausted. So the amount of energy that goes to that cleaning is not worth it.
Patricia Sung [01:25:05]:
Like, not to mention the benefit of, like, before she comes, I pick up everything and I'm, you know, and I'm, you know, also squawking at the kids. What's the strap on where I did?
Tami Hackbarth [01:25:12]:
Did. We did we have to do the pre clean too. You do the pre clean,
Patricia Sung [01:25:15]:
but, like, my house also stays significantly more organized and things get put away because she can't clean if the stuff is everywhere. But it happens every 2 weeks. So it doesn't get to the, like, pile, like, the monumental pile where you can't do anything about it. Now don't get me wrong. There's plenty of piles on my counter right now because it's it's May, December, and there's all kinds of projects and junk, like, piled up. But, like, she can move 1 pile over and clean the counter. Like, I don't like to be exact to her because I'm sure it's harder for her. But, like, even if I have everything in a pile on the counter, it's not on the floor.
Patricia Sung [01:25:44]:
It's not in my car. It's not on the kitchen table. It's not in their backpacks, and it is maintained over time. Is it perfect? No. Like, my house definitely does not look like you. But I was like, this room looks nice because I knew I was recording a bunch of interviews today because she's here today. I was like, I gotta be in this room. So, like, all the junk is hidden.
Patricia Sung [01:26:06]:
But, like, that exchange is worth it hands down every time. And so, like, when you're talking to your partner about, like, how do we make this better? Like, I still remember when my when I was pregnant with my oldest, I was so sick. I threw up for 7 months with my first, all 9 months with my second. So, like, when you're throwing up that much, now you know you only have 2 kids. I was like, this is not I can't do this. I told my husband. I was like, you know, our house is starting to fall apart because I was literally I'd be on the floor vomiting for hours. And I was like, I can't do it all.
Patricia Sung [01:26:42]:
I can either keep up with the house, or I can cook. Or what was the other 1? Keeping up with the house, cooking, and oh, and then at the time, that's the second, we had, you know, the older 1. So or and I can care for this kid, but I can't do all 3. So which 2 are we are we sticking with here? And so, obviously, the kid was nonnegotiable, so he's didn't care if he was 1, and the other 1 was keeping up with the house staff. So my second pregnancy, I hardly cooked at all. We picked up or my husband would figure out the cooking. That was not on my my my job responsibilities while I was pregnant. I'm like, I can't do it.
Patricia Sung [01:27:24]:
So when you have those conversations with your partner, like, how do we, as a team, figure out the solution? If you're like, well, I don't have a $100 to pay somebody to come to my house. Okay. Cool. Is there something else that you can swap that for? Like, we often have pockets of money that are not really being utilized as much as we could. Like, the amount of pleasure I get out of not cleaning my house is pretty high. So I will do a lot of other things myself so that I don't have to give up my cleaning lady. I will take that trade. There was a time where I gave up pedicures.
Tami Hackbarth [01:28:01]:
This is
Patricia Sung [01:28:01]:
back in my twenties before I had responsibilities. I gave up pedicures so that I could save for my first house. Because I was like, I was willing to cut this thing that I loved, especially because I would go with my friends after when I was teaching. Well, all the teachers would go together once a month on Friday after school. It was a thing. I didn't wanna give that up. But what's more important to me at the time was saving for my house down payment. So when I look at that, especially with ADHD, like, we have to know why.
Patricia Sung [01:28:24]:
I knew that giving up the pedicures was because I wanted a house. Like, I wanted to start my investment company. I was you know, I bought it. I renovated it. I flipped it. Like, I wanted that more than I wanted pedicures. And in those times, it's a whole lot easier to say, I'm not doing the pedicure because I want this other thing more. So it's the same thing.
Patricia Sung [01:28:42]:
I want someone cleaning my house because I really hate cleaning my house and it takes me forever and I never get it done. So what am I willing to give up to be able to make that happen a whole lot? Let me tell you. It in those times where we've had to cut back, it's never been the clear either. Well, thanks
Tami Hackbarth [01:28:56]:
for being here. And I have to tell you, like, my husband was super resistant. He is neurotypical, but he was still very resistant to hiring a cleaning team. And his thing was like, but we can do this. And I was like, okay. Well, you're right. We can. But here's the thing.
Tami Hackbarth [01:29:13]:
We don't do it to the level that they would do it. So I just made a very comprehensive list of every single job, like white bathroom counter, suite bathroom. Like I listed it out room by room by room by room. And I was like, highlight that half that you're gonna do. Tell me the day of the week it's gonna be done. And he was like, I don't wanna do any of this. And I was like, well, neither do I, but these are the things that need to be done. So either we're splitting this pal, because I am not the only person that lives here, or we are gonna bring in somebody for our family success team.
Tami Hackbarth [01:29:59]:
We're going to spread our teacher money, our wealth, and support an another female owned business to have them do work in their area of expertise, or we're gonna split it. And he was like, this job sounds terrible. Let's find somebody. I was like, cool. It sounds like we have a lot in common and that we have a lot of things going well in our self care because we're like, hello, this is a matter. I don't want to just survive this life. I want to thrive and I want to help other people do that too. I feel like we have the same mission in life and in our work.
Tami Hackbarth [01:30:37]:
For sure. What area of your self care at this point, this many years in, are you like, oh, I see you over there. You need a little attention.
Patricia Sung [01:30:46]:
Oh. Right now, it's the the movement category. So I've spent the last 4 years healing from mold toxicity. And when I was really sick, I was bedridden. Every time I stood up, I would get dizzy. I had POTS, if if you're familiar with that. And then I really struggled health wise, and my blood pressure is extremely low. I had my blood pressure was about 85 over 50.
Patricia Sung [01:31:06]:
And so just, you know, most people don't stay alive when their blood pressure is that level. Like, maybe some 88 year old lady could make it, but that's about it. Like, I it was really bad. But given that, I was not doing any physical activity because my like, I couldn't even walk up the stairs without getting extremely winded and, like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna pass out and black out. So this 4 year journey has been a beast, and I am happy to still be alive. But now that I am in a place where I can do things, like, I've been doing my physical therapy exercises to, you know, I had a symphysis pubis dysfunction with my youngest, which if anyone's unfamiliar, it means that your ligaments don't go back in place after pregnancy around your hips. So, like, your hips are designed to expand to be able to get the baby out of the birth canal. But then after the you know, your hormones cause them to stretch so that the baby can exit, then when the hormones stop, it's supposed to go back together again.
Patricia Sung [01:32:01]:
Well, mine didn't, so my hip bones were wiggly. So they were they were not stationary. So that was a lot of back trouble, which hypermobility is often very common with people who have ADHD, which so now that I know a lot about it, no surprise there. But so I've been doing a lot of physical therapy exercises to strengthen my core and, like, you know, get my body to do things like walk correctly. Just FYI, didn't know I wasn't walking correctly. I didn't walk correctly. And now it's at the point of like, okay, I am healthy enough that I can start doing these things again. So it's like, whoo.
Patricia Sung [01:32:31]:
But as a mom, you're like, now I gotta figure this out. Like, I figure out where does it go in my schedule. You know? It's all the questions of, like, well, where do I go? Who am I gonna go with? Do I need to sign up for a class? Do I need to do weights? And, like, that overwhelming decision has been, like, sitting on the back burner of, like, I'll get you that later. So that's been the 1 thing where I'm like, it's very apparent that that is now it's moved from being a I was putting it off because it felt scary. Like, there was so long that I couldn't do physical activity because I would get so sick. That now it's like, okay. That's not me anymore. And I've had to change my mindset around being a sick person and being a disabled person to now I am capable.
Patricia Sung [01:33:12]:
So now that I feel like I'm like, okay, I I think I've almost adjusted back to being a a healthy individual again from in my mind. Now it's like, oh, how am I gonna make that work? Because it's not a an overnight thing. It's a monumental decision. It's not like 1 thing. Like we talked about earlier, it's like, there's a lot of pieces that go into it, and I know that I need to then make probably, like, 15 to 30 decisions in order to make this happen. So, like, setting it aside the time to be like, okay. This is now a priority. How am I gonna make this work? It's not just what day of the week I'm gonna do it, but it's all the questions that come in with it.
Patricia Sung [01:33:49]:
I'm like, same thing. I'm like, I don't even know if my exercise clothes really fit anymore. Like, I went from being a size 10, 12 down to a 2. I gotten down to a £130. I'm almost 6 feet tall. So I was in rough shape. I lost a £100 total from when I was pregnant down to when I was my lowest. Now I'm back up to about where I was at a size 10, 12.
Patricia Sung [01:34:09]:
So I'm like, I don't even know if I have those clothes anymore. I'm gonna have to go shopping. Like, it's a whole thing, and to know those are all different kinds of tasks. So it's not like I can just jump in and do them all at once. I now know, like, how my brain works is that I need to divide them into groups and be like, okay. Problem number 1, where's the time to be able to do this? Problem number 2 is, like, well, where's the activity that I can fit in the time that I have available? Problem number 3, do I have the clothing that is appropriate for this activity? Number 4, how do I sign up for those things? Like, you know, compare the pricing and the memberships. It's, like, all these different sections I need to sit down and look at as separate projects, not as 1 big scary project, and then I'll be able to figure out how to make that work. So that is the the next self care to do list item is to break that down so it doesn't feel so overwhelming.
Tami Hackbarth [01:34:57]:
So I have 2 things to say. So I am your future, meaning that since I am a decade ahead of you, 1 thing that I think is absolutely shit about the human experience is that movement is so nonnegotiable. When you're young, you can do whatever the hell you want with your body. You can you can do nothing. You can rot in your bed and you will get up and run a marathon. You can go to work drunk and be fine in your fifties, in your fifties. You're like, do I have to do PT in order to stretch in order to exercise so I can get out of bed? It is it's insulting how much how the future just punches you in the nose and goes, you know, I gave you all this time, this whole, I gave you 50 years to figure this out. And now it's non negotiable.
Tami Hackbarth [01:35:57]:
And it's like, but you know, what have been really more effective human experience is if I had gotten these consequences earlier in my life, I would have figured this shit out. Yeah. So that I don't know about when
Patricia Sung [01:36:08]:
you have it, when your body just does what it, like, when your body literally would just do whatever you expected it is a is such a luxury and a gift that having been so sick, I'm like, people who are helpless.
Tami Hackbarth [01:36:20]:
Of your, like, what? I had no idea how much a privilege I was living in with a functional body. Right?
Patricia Sung [01:36:26]:
Yes. It is definitely a privilege.
Tami Hackbarth [01:36:28]:
Do you use goblin tools? No. Okay. Well, you need to look at Goblin Tools because Goblin Tools is an AI tool where you go ADHD. You put in your problem and it gives you steps and it tasks them out. And then you can, oh my God. And then it'll give you a steps. And if it hasn't broken the steps down enough for you, you can break down each individual step and it creates a checklist. Play with it.
Tami Hackbarth [01:36:55]:
And it been in, you might go, oh my God, that totally worked for my brain. Or you're like, oh, that's, whatever. But I have put in some things that I'm like, because that's 1 place where I struggle is breaking big things down, not concepts, but projects. I'm like, damn it. What is the project?
Patricia Sung [01:37:12]:
I definitely thought I could do this project
Tami Hackbarth [01:37:14]:
in like 2 days. And then you look at the to
Patricia Sung [01:37:16]:
do list. You're like, this is like a 10 week project, Patricia. This is not what to be project. Yeah.
Tami Hackbarth [01:37:21]:
And you're like, if I don't eat or sleep, I could totally bang this out. But anyway, try try that tool and let me know how it works for you. What's your morning routine?
Patricia Sung [01:37:31]:
So it I have different morning routines depending on if my husband's around or not. And I think that's also something that's important to know. Like, you don't have to have 1 end all be all routine. Like, our school days when my husband is here look different than the school days when he's not here, and they look different from the weekends. And I know that makes some people be like, how am I gonna have 3 different routines? Well, just something or
Tami Hackbarth [01:37:52]:
it's based being responsive. Right? You're like, my reality today is this.
Patricia Sung [01:37:57]:
Yes. But also you already have a routine. You may not like it, but you have a routine. There's a way that you already do things, and you might be like, this is not good, but you have 1. So you are capable of having a routine. If you don't like the word routine, call it a rhythm. It said tastes better to you. But I am not a morning person.
Patricia Sung [01:38:17]:
So right now, my morning routine is drag my behind out of bed when I need to, like, when the kids are getting up. So I have Alexa runs our mornings. Oh, wait. Is she okay. So you never never know, like, if you say the word and then all of a sudden she starts talking. I'm like, shit. Shh.
Tami Hackbarth [01:38:30]:
Now I know.
Patricia Sung [01:38:31]:
She runs our mornings. So she's like, hey. It's time to get up. I have an alarm that goes off a little bit ahead, but my I have I used to be the person that has, like, 73 alarms, but they drive my husband bonkers. So our new agreement is I don't have all those alarms that go off in the morning, and then he'll wake me up, which does not work for everybody. But when he's here, he does that. When he's not here, all 73 alarms are going off. And I 1 that goes off when the kids need to get out of bed, and then Alexa in the room is saying, hey.
Patricia Sung [01:38:55]:
It's time it's time to get up. It's, you know, get your clothes on. Have you gone potty yet? And, like, you need a word in a way that your kids aren't gonna be, like, you know, rebellious towards her. But they are significantly less rebellious to a robot than you. So she tells them what to do and keeps them on time. And so while they're getting dressed on a day where they actually get dressed and, like, I can I'll we still have our baby monitors hooked up. Like, I'll listen and be like, are they actually awake? Like, they don't need baby monitors anymore. Like, they're way past that.
Patricia Sung [01:39:25]:
But it's for me to be like, we live in a 2 story house. I'm like, I don't wanna run all the way up there if they're fine. You know? And then, like, when he's not here, I'll as long as I can hear that they're getting ready, all I do is I take my ADHD medicine and I go potty. That's it. You know my mom when I said I go potty and then I go to the bathroom. I go potty, and then I take my medicine, and that's it. And we go and, you know, I feed them breakfast and get all this, like, the last minute things because we pack backpacks the night before. Get all the last minute things in the backpack and then brush their teeth, and I will literally throw on, like, something that looks like not a pajama over top the pajamas to walk them to school, and then I come home and do the things for me.
Patricia Sung [01:40:06]:
When my husband's here, he starts getting them started. I will actually put clothes on. But, like, I don't usually, like, brush my teeth and wash my face, all that stuff. Like, that's not until they're out the door because I am not a morning person, and I don't wanna wake up any earlier than we have to. Also, our school starts at 7:20 right now, which is very early for for elementary school in my opinion, personally. But and I so I get them out, and then I take care of me. So from 7:15 to 8 is my time to be like, okay. I'm gonna have my quiet time.
Patricia Sung [01:40:32]:
I'm gonna pray. I'm gonna wash my face and brush my teeth. And, you know, if I'm gonna scroll some stupid social media for a couple of minutes, like, all that happens in that 45 minutes. If I'm doing my physical therapy exercises, like, that's the time for that. And then at 8, that's when my day starts. But I don't have this, like, glorious routine of, like, 5 AM yoga. It's like, I teach how to do morning routines. Like, you can learn that from me.
Patricia Sung [01:40:55]:
I have a class. It's $97 like but I want you to know that, like, it's not because I'm like, yay. Let's go yoga. 5 AM. Uh-uh. No. My morning routine is for the people who are like, my alarm clock is the toddler who's now bonking me in the head because I need to get up and they're hungry. Like, that's who my morning routine course is for.
Patricia Sung [01:41:16]:
How do we get through this part of the day that I don't like? And then I can go be a human once my medicine is kicked in and my children are out the door. Now I'm like, okay. Cool. Now let's go wash the breakfast dishes. But I'm not doing that at 6:30 in the morning. That's not my thing.
Tami Hackbarth [01:41:34]:
I I love that. And it's funny because I am a morning person, so I guess that's why I'm like, oh, what do you all do in the morning? But if you ask me what I do from, like, 5 PM until bedtime, I'm, like, lay in my bed and watch TikTok until the time has come for everyone to go to bed. So we just do the same thing at the other end of the day. Right? It's like my energy. I'm a rooster. I am ready to go. Sun up. Sunrise, 365 days a year over in this brain.
Tami Hackbarth [01:42:08]:
I love that. Patricia, please tell us again where we can find you. When we want to find your podcast, we wanna find all your free resources. We wanna find your ADHD symptom checkoff list. Where are people gonna find you online?
Patricia Sung [01:42:21]:
So everything is motherhood in ADHD everywhere. So it's like that.com for my website. You can see the it really like the there's like a start here tab. Click there. That'll take you to the all the free resources. My podcast is called motherhood and ADHD. All my social handles are the same. Although I am taking a social media break right now.
Patricia Sung [01:42:42]:
My assistant's posting things for me, but I've been taking a break, and it has been glorious for my mental health. I'm a be honest. And, yeah, go on there, grab as many free resources that make you happy. And then, if you're like, hey. This this chick sounds like my kind of people. I have a community. We meet every Wednesday, and we spend half the time getting some shit done and figuring out, like, what's what's coming up in your week? What do you need to look ahead for? Because we tend not to look ahead. When we have ADHD, we just live in the now.
Patricia Sung [01:43:07]:
We're like, what do you mean there is this thing next week? So we do that, and the second half is social time, or sometimes I teach, like, a little mini mini class on something. But mostly it's about the time with the other moms and getting to know other people who get you and, like, so you can have, you know, the kind of conversations that Tammy and I have of, like, just digging into your people. And then I have a retreat coming up in October. If there's still tickets available, come sign up. We're gonna hang out for the weekend, and I take care of you. You literally get to show up and do nothing responsible. Oh, that's pretty sweet.
Tami Hackbarth [01:43:37]:
Where are you holding the retreat
Patricia Sung [01:43:39]:
in Houston? In Houston. Good to know. Is where I live.
Tami Hackbarth [01:43:42]:
Awesome. Thank you for being here. We have 10 quickies. Are you ready for the quick fire k.
Patricia Sung [01:43:48]:
Ready.
Tami Hackbarth [01:43:49]:
Challenge questions? We're doing this super fast because you already know a lot of this.
Patricia Sung [01:43:52]:
Okay.
Tami Hackbarth [01:43:52]:
Patricia Sung, what is your Enneagram? We've already discussed it. 1. 1. We're 1 sisters, introvert, extrovert
Patricia Sung [01:43:59]:
introvert.
Tami Hackbarth [01:44:01]:
I wish you could see Patricia's face. And as somebody who has spent time with you at the end of the day, we're both like, and scene. Good night. Good night. Exactly. Upholder, questioner, obliger, or rebel,
Patricia Sung [01:44:14]:
questioner.
Tami Hackbarth [01:44:16]:
Say, automate, eliminate, delegate something from the house or your business,
Patricia Sung [01:44:21]:
everything that doesn't require to be me. Right.
Tami Hackbarth [01:44:26]:
I call that empowering the people around me to stand in their leadership. Some people call it being lazy. Usually, it's children. I did have a student say you're the laziest grown up I've ever met in my life.
Patricia Sung [01:44:37]:
And I was like, you're welcome. You feel very good. Notes child take
Tami Hackbarth [01:44:41]:
yeah. Congratulations. If a kid can do it, they should do it. I'll handle the stuff you guys can't do. Favorite last book that you read the most recent book where you're like, shut the front door. Everyone has to read this
Patricia Sung [01:44:53]:
remarkably bright creatures. Don't ask me the author. I have no idea.
Tami Hackbarth [01:44:58]:
Was that the 1 with the octopus on the cover?
Patricia Sung [01:44:59]:
Yes, the octopus.
Tami Hackbarth [01:45:00]:
Okay.
Patricia Sung [01:45:01]:
I just read it for book club.
Tami Hackbarth [01:45:03]:
Awesome.
Patricia Sung [01:45:03]:
I also just read I Who Have Never Known Men, which is like a sci fi kind of I didn't know a friend recommended it. I did not know what I was getting into. It was not what I expected, but it really was thought provoking.
Tami Hackbarth [01:45:14]:
Oh, I love that. It was weird. But I've never heard of that.
Patricia Sung [01:45:17]:
I'm not really a big sci fi person, so, like, I would never picked that book myself, but I thought I mean, I checked it out from the library because my friend recommended it. And I was like, this is deep. It's not what I thought I was gonna Okay.
Tami Hackbarth [01:45:29]:
I love that. And I also love giving that idea of, like, well, I'm gonna get it from the library. And if I like it, I like it. If I don't, I don't. No harm, no foul, but it is curious to find out what other people find fascinating. Also PS started a podcast. So basically I have this giant reading list. Favorite book of all time?
Patricia Sung [01:45:45]:
To kill a mockingbird.
Tami Hackbarth [01:45:48]:
We're we're gonna take a moment for Harper Lee. I did not read that book until I was in my late twenties. I don't know how, but on the middle of the first page, I thought, shit. I get why this book is a classic.
Patricia Sung [01:46:06]:
I mean, I read it in high school, and I grew up in a small Midwestern suburb where, like, you could count the number of minority people on 1 hand. And so I really had never been exposed to anyone different than me for most of my childhood. And that book just opened my eyes to be like, wow. There is so much that I don't know, but also that I would like to learn. And, like, here we are now. I'm, you know, I'm in an interracial marriage and who who would've known? I'd end up here.
Tami Hackbarth [01:46:31]:
But And I grew up in 1 of the most diverse areas in the country, and I was so moved by the injustice all the way around, but the writing just itself, and it's so brief and okay. Yeah. Your favorite personal development book. And I define personal development as a book that when you read it, you thought, oh, I am going to use the exercises in this book, and I am going to change something about my life. Oh, man.
Patricia Sung [01:47:01]:
So I read a lot of these, and I have recently taken to not reading any more books by old white dudes for instruction.
Tami Hackbarth [01:47:11]:
High fiving on so many levels.
Patricia Sung [01:47:14]:
So, like, there's because I mean, at the end of the day, there's I think of, like, immediately the first book I came up with is also by I'm pretty sure he's a white dude. I don't think he's old. It's called Come Up For Air. But I was like, no. I'm really tired of promoting old white dudes or just other white dudes. Like, yes. I'm not saying what's in your book is not valuable, but a lot of times, it's not written from the perspective of people who are caregivers. And there's so much that's not taken into account when that advice is, like, doesn't consider the fact that you have other people to consider, and it's not just do whatever works best for you.
Patricia Sung [01:47:56]:
So that being said, if I was gonna pick a white dude book, which I think is that guy. I I feel like I really should have looked that up before I said that. My favorite I've I literally have read so many. I'm like, oh my gosh. There's so many to choose from. But I would say out of all of them, I think Nedra Taweb is awesome in her books on boundaries. Both of them are excellent. And I would I would like to promote more women, more people of color.
Patricia Sung [01:48:22]:
Like, I want the people who actually had to struggle to get there, I want I'm not saying that people don't have struggle. Old way too, I'm sure have struggled too. But, like, people who really struggled, I want your advice. I want to know what it took to get where you are because, like, that's the kind of advice that I want in my life are the people who get it and, like, really struggle. Like, another 1 I can think of is, like, 6 figures in school hours, I think. It's like Kate Toon, I think, was her name. Like, books that are aimed at moms by moms. I don't want somebody who's never had, like, a sticky handed 3 year old in their vicinity while they're trying to get something done.
Patricia Sung [01:48:59]:
Tell me how to do it. Because I'm like, I'm pretty sure if I stuck this toddler in your office, you wouldn't get anything done either, bud. So you know?
Tami Hackbarth [01:49:06]:
No. I mean and I have to tell you, I am 100% behind you on this. And is it Nick Sonnenberg? Yes. Is this?
Patricia Sung [01:49:16]:
Yes. That book.
Tami Hackbarth [01:49:17]:
Okay. I agree. I mean, Michelle Obama wrote about it, this exact phenomenon, which is, hey, if you're at the pinnacle of your profession, there is an invisible architecture scaffold underneath your success. I love the book essentialism, but I'm like, hey, author
Patricia Sung [01:49:37]:
could also. Yes.
Tami Hackbarth [01:49:38]:
Who's taking care of your kids?
Patricia Sung [01:49:40]:
Mhmm.
Tami Hackbarth [01:49:41]:
So the same thing with
Patricia Sung [01:49:43]:
the 1 thing or the big leap,
Tami Hackbarth [01:49:45]:
all of it. Who's taking care of your kids? Who is the favored parent of all the people who are ornery and awful and need to be taken places and are constantly asking for food. Like as recently as this morning, my daughter said she has doctor's appointment later and she goes, why don't you just let me stay home? And I was like, because I will get nothing done. And she's like, I won't bug you. And I was like, that is hilarious. You will interrupt every single thought I have with a question that you find urgent. Or if you're not currently interrupting me, I will anticipate you interrupting me. So no, ma'am, you're gonna go to school for the first half of the day.
Tami Hackbarth [01:50:28]:
I'll pick you up at lunch for your doctor's appointment. So actually I
Patricia Sung [01:50:33]:
also just read, I'm trying to look I'm trying to I always say the wrong word, so I'm like, this is an ADHD thing. I'm like, I keep picturing oh, that's what it is. Okay. Unapologetically ambitious by Shelley Archambault was really good too. She's a mom who was 1 of the, I think she was the first African American tech CEO, like, in Silicon Valley. And for some reason, I always wanna say audacious instead of ambitious. And every time I'm like, Patricia, make sure which a word is it because they're both good. Her book was really good too, especially from the perspective of, like, a mom who was a CEO and also, like, just busting through so many hurdles and stereotypes.
Patricia Sung [01:51:11]:
Like, again, that's the advice I want. I want the mom who did it under, like, the circumstances where everyone else said she couldn't. That's the advice I wanna follow.
Tami Hackbarth [01:51:21]:
Absolutely. And so when I hired my first business coach, I hired somebody who had 3 kids started she had a set of twins, a kid, a few years younger, and she only ever worked part time Mhmm. And still was making 6 figures. I was like, that's the person I would like to learn from because I learn the words early in my career, which is begin the way you wish to continue. I would like to work part time. I would like to have a lot of time to take care of myself, my friends, my family, my community, the world, and I would like to make hella full time money. That's the person. I don't need the, like, rise and grind and do I don't no.
Tami Hackbarth [01:52:01]:
No. No. Thank you. Okay. So social media channel where you like to hang out, not as a professional, but as a person.
Patricia Sung [01:52:09]:
I mean, I guess Instagram, but I deleted off my phone probably how many months ago was that? It was in October. Nice. But it's I mean, like, I'll go peek in every once in a while, but, like, basically, I I don't go check it until my assistant says, hey. You need to go read these messages, then I go read the messages and I respond. But otherwise, she monitors it all so I don't get lost in there. So I would say Instagram with the caveat that, like, I only go in there when my assistant tells me I need to go in there, and then I try to avoid it otherwise. Because otherwise, I get sucked in until many hours in Instagram.
Tami Hackbarth [01:52:39]:
Yeah. I hear you. Favorite TV show past or present?
Patricia Sung [01:52:43]:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
Tami Hackbarth [01:52:45]:
I like that. I don't know why you're asking us a question. Well, I because
Patricia Sung [01:52:47]:
you're like something I saw more recently. I don't watch a ton of TV these days. Yeah. That just brings out, like, really happy college memories back. Yeah.
Tami Hackbarth [01:52:55]:
Love that. And finally, last but not least, our actual end of our interview question stolen directly from James Lipton, Patricia Sung, what is your favorite swear word?
Patricia Sung [01:53:11]:
It's really hard to pick 1. I I would say I probably say shit the most. Yeah.
Tami Hackbarth [01:53:19]:
As in shit, I forgot. Shit.
Patricia Sung [01:53:22]:
No. Like, I can't. But yeah. But more like, losing my shit. Got what is that shit? It's more of
Tami Hackbarth [01:53:29]:
a you're like, I can't. Do you just a noun? What is
Patricia Sung [01:53:32]:
that shit? I'm losing it's more of a noun. I use it. I prefer its usage as a noun.
Tami Hackbarth [01:53:37]:
Yeah. I like that. Alright, friends. Go over and check out motherhoodinadhd.com. You can find Patricia's podcast wherever podcasts are found. You may even find me as a guest on Patricia's podcast, talking all things about late diagnosis and how fair play and ADHD families can be besties. And until next week, remember that you matter too.
Patricia Sung [01:54:21]:
For more resources, classes, and community, head over to my website motherhoodinadhd.com.